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22202
263 Posts |
 Posted - 04/11/2011 : 11:22:51
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| A batter gets walked and trots down to first and makes the turn to 2nd and takes off for 2nd. The pitcher, not watching, hears the crowd scream RUNNER sees the runner going and throws to 2nd, there is also a runner on 3rd and when he sees the pitcher throwing to 2nd he takes off for home and scores. Coach for the team on defense is livid and says he called time and the play should be dead sending the batter back to first and the 3rd base runner back to 3rd? Is the play "dead' or is time allowed to be called by any coach right when the batter touches first or before getting to first? Or is it up to the umps to call time to stop play and reset. Just wondering. |
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the fan
15 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 12:07:29
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| Coaches may only REQUEST TIME. Umpires must grant it. To answer your question, only an umpire can stop play with "TIME" |
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leftyrightyecb
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 13:24:20
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| It is up to the umps from what I know. I hate that bush league play in the younger ages. You don't see it when you get older. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 13:42:12
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All action must stop before time can be called, and just because a coach asks for it does not guarantee that time will be called. From what you described, the BR was making an attempt to go to second, therefore Time could not and should not be called. If no time was given, correct call.
Straight from the OBR:
"Except in the cases stated in paragraphs (b) and (c)(1) of this rule, no umpire shall
call “Time” while a play is in progress."
(b) is Light Failure
(c)(1) is injury
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22202
263 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 16:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by leftyrightyecb
It is up to the umps from what I know. I hate that bush league play in the younger ages. You don't see it when you get older.
I am not arguing here...But why is that a bush league play? I don't see it being any different than the baserunner stopping on first and then stealing 2nd when the next pitch is thrown. I actually see this as more risky. You are taking away the force at 2nd with the next batter up. Both plays are designed to advance the runner and hopefully score the 3rd base runner. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 16:39:38
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| I was under the impression "time" was granted.....I have seen coaches use time out creatively while a play was developing.... |
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Enine
66 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 20:18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by leftyrightyecb
It is up to the umps from what I know. I hate that bush league play in the younger ages. You don't see it when you get older.
I would not call the BR hustling to first base and taking second a bush league play. I call that smart base running. Players need to keep their heads in the game. That is why I love to see players run to 1b on ball 4. A "well coached" should not have this type of play happen to them. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 20:38:53
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| A coach or player can call time whenever they want. Whether an ump grants it or not is another story. No matter how much or how emphatically a coach or players asks for time is of no consequence. Time out is only in effect when an umpire grants the request. |
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leftyrightyecb
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 09:30:44
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Enine and 222...
Tell me how you would defend against it if it is not bush league? I rank it up there with the phantom dropped third strike where the first base coach yells for the batter to hurry down to first which causes a kid to throw down and the runner at third takes off for home. I prefer to go home after a game knowing I won or lost and taught the game based on fielding, hitting, and pitching and did not need to dig in to the tricks bag to get it. That is my opinion - popular or not it keeps me from losing any sleep at night. |
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reallycoach
64 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 09:56:04
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| you throw to the SS and have him throw home. Who casres if the kid gets to second. That's just baseball |
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22202
263 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 10:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by leftyrightyecb
Enine and 222...
Tell me how you would defend against it if it is not bush league? I rank it up there with the phantom dropped third strike where the first base coach yells for the batter to hurry down to first which causes a kid to throw down and the runner at third takes off for home. I prefer to go home after a game knowing I won or lost and taught the game based on fielding, hitting, and pitching and did not need to dig in to the tricks bag to get it. That is my opinion - popular or not it keeps me from losing any sleep at night.
IF the batter stopped at first and the third base runner stayed isn't the next move to steal 2nd when the next batter takes the first pitch to take away the force at 2nd? And the it's up to the catcher to throw down to 2nd or hold it to hold the 3rd base runner. I probably wouldn't risk it with 2 outs.
My whole question was the timing of calling time. CAN the coach call time to stop the runner on the first base bag? I know that he can but does that stop the play from developing. |
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Enine
66 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 10:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by leftyrightyecb
Enine and 222...
Tell me how you would defend against it if it is not bush league? I rank it up there with the phantom dropped third strike where the first base coach yells for the batter to hurry down to first which causes a kid to throw down and the runner at third takes off for home. I prefer to go home after a game knowing I won or lost and taught the game based on fielding, hitting, and pitching and did not need to dig in to the tricks bag to get it. That is my opinion - popular or not it keeps me from losing any sleep at night.
If both the pitcher and catcher have their heads in the game both are aware of the base runners. A sharp throw from the catcher back to the pitcher should prevent the runner at first from trying to advance. It would be no different that a pitcher making a pitch with runners at first and third. There is no trickery involved in the scenario detailed by the OP, it is smart base running IMO.
If either or both the pitcher or catcher are not paying attention at any point in the game, runners will run. Exploiting a teams weakness is not bush, I call that smart baseball.
Not the same as the phantom drop third strike as no one is yelling to confuse the opposing team. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 11:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by 22202
My whole question was the timing of calling time. CAN the coach call time to stop the runner on the first base bag? I know that he can but does that stop the play from developing.
Judgment call by umpire... Two schools of though on this: Only give time if both runner where standing on their respective bases making no attempt to advance: or immediately after ball 4, provided the catcher caught the ball. In the second I am talking about the HC coming out to talk to his pitcher after several missed pitches. We all know what I am talking about here, where the HC is chomping on the bit and is basically standing on the baseline asking for time with the BR not even 1/4 way down the line. |
Edited by - christheump on 04/12/2011 11:48:06 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 12:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by leftyrightyecb
Enine and 222...
Tell me how you would defend against it if it is not bush league? I rank it up there with the phantom dropped third strike where the first base coach yells for the batter to hurry down to first which causes a kid to throw down and the runner at third takes off for home. I prefer to go home after a game knowing I won or lost and taught the game based on fielding, hitting, and pitching and did not need to dig in to the tricks bag to get it. That is my opinion - popular or not it keeps me from losing any sleep at night.
Is this play really that hard to defend against?? |
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EastsideBB
44 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 13:30:38
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| It happens a lot in the 9 to 10 age group. But if it happens to you once it should never happen again. Never seen it in high school on the bigger fields. I agree with chistheump posts. The plays continues until the runners does not make an attempt to advance. We taught our players this back in t-ball. |
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reallycoach
64 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 14:20:29
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| I thnk the best defense here is to try and draw the man on third into going. Who cares about the guys going to second. I mean we do care, but in the long run ending the threat from third should be more valuable. |
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momshell
103 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 15:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by EastsideBB
It happens a lot in the 9 to 10 age group. But if it happens to you once it should never happen again. Never seen it in high school on the bigger fields. I agree with chistheump posts. The plays continues until the runners does not make an attempt to advance. We taught our players this back in t-ball.
No Kidding! Awhile back when my husband coached 9-10 we successfully ran this play until the umpire asked us to stop.LOL Opposing team was clueless. Saw this play last night in a high school(good team) game, so I wouldn't say it was bush league.
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highcheese
71 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 15:24:07
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| Umpire has to wait until the "play" is completed before calling a standard time out. The play is completed when the "walk" is executed by the runner touching first and completing the "walk", play is still "on" and runners advance at their own risk from this point. After the play is completed is the only time and ump can call time if requested, when deemed in his opinion all reasonable action has stopped. Exceptions to this are natural disasters and safety reasons. Coach or player has no "right" to call and be awarded a stoppage of play or timeout. Now, if the player hustled to first base and kept going to second, he completed the play and advanced at his own risk which is fine. Couple ways to defend this, you do not have to at older ages because it does not occur due to arm strength and baseball acumen. The younger ages use this as a way to manufacture runners in scoring position and create chaos. Go over these scenarios in practice and make sure your players are educated. Spend a few minutes each practice on the quirky stuff that happens or could happen in baseball and you will be amazed how your players will react if they have been exposed to it. It is a smart play for the opposing coach to yell to the umpire time before the player gets to first thus having the umpire make a judgment call after the player reaches first whether or not it is appropriate to call time. We have all been burned by stuff like this and it stinks. Keep your players in the game until the only person who can call time is the ump. Crazy game we play and love. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 15:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by reallycoach
I thnk the best defense here is to try and draw the man on third into going. Who cares about the guys going to second. I mean we do care, but in the long run ending the threat from third should be more valuable.
The point I was trying to make, the coach who yells for his batter to hustle down to first isn't doing anything wrong, and he isn't causing the catcher to throw the ball down. A lack of coaching or field time is, this play was impossible at 8-9 but I just don't see it work anymore... |
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22202
263 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 21:25:43
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| I saw it work twice in an older age group this weekend. I was surprised by it. Seems like if you can pull it off than bonus for you. |
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EastsideBB
44 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 07:20:17
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| We have successfully stopped this play by having the catcher quickly throw the ball back to the pitcher who looks the runner at 3rd back to 3rd base and then throw to 1st. The 1st baseman holds the runner at 1st and/or throw home if the runner at 3rd tries to advance to home. Another variation of this offensive play is that you have runners at 1st and 3rd, one out and you need to manufactor a run. With the pitcher on the mound with the ball the runner at 1st simply start walking to 2nd base to entice a run down. This play can be very funny at younger age groups because it cause choas and the defensive does not know whether to run down the player walking to 2nd and allowing the runner at 3rd to score or just giving the runner 2nd base. I only seen this at the younger age groups because of the smaller fields. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 09:46:28
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It's not really different than being down by 1, runners on 1st and 3rd. The runner on 1b takes off to 2nd and stops half way to draw the throw and get in a rundown while the runner at 3b steals home.
The one I like the best is when you are playing against an aggressive catcher who likes to throw the ball. Runners on 2nd and 3rd. The runner on 2b gets a big lead and after the pitch is caught by the catcher, he intentionally slips and falls down to try to draw the throw down to 2nd. When the ball goes through to 2b, the runner on 3b steals home. |
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When can you call time?
