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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2011 : 08:02:29
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| Where do you stand , what's your opinion? If a team can tell what the coach is calling on the bucket...is it unfair to use that data? If the coach doesn't change when he feels the signs are obvious...what should you do? |
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Hiredgun
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 11:20:31
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Picking signs is a part of the game. Many teams have "spies" in the stands and dugout that can relay what a coach is calling from the bucket. If a coach feels that his signs are being picked then he needs to make an adjustment.
Some folks think it is wrong and some say if he is showing them then it is his own fault. Look at this way.....why do you see a catcher call for a pitch out? Either he or his coach may have picked a sign from the opposing coach that a base runner was going to attemtp to steal a base. Is that wrong? No. Like I stated, it is part of the game. |
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Stinger44
49 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 14:13:00
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| On the field I say let the kids go at it. I could see a coach signaling a '1 or 2' to his catcher while sitting on his bucket a few games back. I would never relay that to my Son while he is up to bat, I'm in the stands, no a part of the game. Since you are asking though, I say let the kids try and figure it out, shoot, half the fun is wathcing them get perplexed while trying to figure out their own signs from their 3bc. |
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25ismyson
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 14:57:04
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It's part of the game. If the coach is not smart enough to change signs then what little advantage the hitter gets, they should use. If I know a fastball is called, chances are thats all I know, location may or may not be known.
I've coached before and picked up on signs ans pitch patterns. I would tell my team to look 1st pitch fastball as the coach was calling 1st pitch fastballs 90% of the time. Was that cheating or making the most of the information I had to coach with. Change signs or change patterns.
IMO..The most successful signs are the 3 and 4 digit signals that some teams use, ie 1-2-3, where one number indicates pitch and the second location. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 15:22:55
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We've stolen signs and had our signs stolen and I tell the kids its no big deal either way. I proved it to them this way: While we were in the batting cage, I moved the machine to 54 feet and put it on a RH curve ball. I then told all my batters that all they were going to see was a curve ball that was breaking away from them(going from inside to middle of the plate-opposite for lefties). So being that they are all good hitters and have been playing forever and knew exactly what was coming they crushed every single pitch right? nope, they made solid contact on a lot but werent perfect. Knowing exactly what was coming didnt help, they still had to produce.
Knowing that a train is coming right at you helps information-wise, knowing how and being able to stop/avoid it helps you production-wise.
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WestCoastGuru
148 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 15:29:11
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Just my .02 cents....if a coach can't teach his catcher a series of signs, outside of putting down a "1" or "2". Then he doesn't need to be calling signs, regardless of the age group.
I agree with hired gun, regardless if anybody thinks that is "bush"....its part of the game, its not cheating, no matter where you grew up playing ball and to whatever level. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 16:22:32
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| Depends on the age. I can easily decipher just about every coach's signs, but I have never once used that info. But, at the older ages, I agree it's part of the game. Once, when I was in HS, I noticed a kid relaying signals to the catcher in a very subtle way and I relayed every pitch to our batters from the dugout. We won 19-0. That was part of the game. At 11u, I think it's not appropriate. What is the right age? I don't know. My oldest is 11, so I'll let you know when I get there! |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 17:45:46
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I agree if a coach is getting his signals stolen then he either needs to make a change or as mentioned its part of the game stealing signs and to the other teams advantage to use them against the team they are playing.
Stealing signals / signs has been a part of baseball forever. Just dont get caught relaying them or you might find a fastball in the earhole to your next batter!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Hiredgun
Picking signs is a part of the game. Many teams have "spies" in the stands and dugout that can relay what a coach is calling from the bucket. If a coach feels that his signs are being picked then he needs to make an adjustment.
Some folks think it is wrong and some say if he is showing them then it is his own fault. Look at this way.....why do you see a catcher call for a pitch out? Either he or his coach may have picked a sign from the opposing coach that a base runner was going to attemtp to steal a base. Is that wrong? No. Like I stated, it is part of the game.
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 18:29:27
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| Change your indicator....If kids are expecting a breaking pitch and you blow it by them they have little chance. The really good teams just reverse the signs for an inning.....It is almost like a free inning when the other team is waiting for a pitch that isn't coming!! |
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biggin
174 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 19:28:30
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| Coaching 3rd for 1st time in 5 years it was funny how often the coaches thought they had my signs. Its 1 thing to figure it out its another to do anything about it. |
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gasbag
281 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 19:29:08
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| It's a part of the game. The older they get, the more they do it. Coaches, catchers and pitchers will change signs multiple times throughout a game. Heck, the players relay signs in from second base to a batter, while watching the catcher to help him out. It's not considered dirty but the rule of thumb is don't tip your hand and be blatant about it. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 20:29:38
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quote:
Originally posted by biggin
Coaching 3rd for 1st time in 5 years it was funny how often the coaches thought they had my signs. Its 1 thing to figure it out its another to do anything about it.
I agree 1000%. I know that I am only at 11U but at this age if a coach can steal our signs and relay them to the batter and the batter actually be able to profit from that information then more power to him. It is one thing to know that my Pitcher is about the throw you a cutter...it is another thing to actually hit it.
Just my $.02, but I reserve the right to change my stance as my son gets older ;)
--T
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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 11:20:18
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| Thanks for the feedback...a 14U game was lost recently and this topic was a point of contention from what i understand in their dugout...not sure if it was exclusively presented as the reason they lost...but why even bring it up unless you are having a teachable moment with the coach and catcher? |
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gwinnettdad
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 14:11:30
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| If you are a coach or parent stealing signs and relaying them to the batters it is BUSH !!! What are you teaching your kids by doing that? Just because you cant coach doesnt mean its OK to steal signs and then say "its part of the game". If the kids learn it later and make it part of their game its a different story. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 14:45:49
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CoachT, isn't that the truth!
quote:
Originally posted by coachtony
quote:
Originally posted by biggin
Coaching 3rd for 1st time in 5 years it was funny how often the coaches thought they had my signs. Its 1 thing to figure it out its another to do anything about it.
I agree 1000%. I know that I am only at 11U but at this age if a coach can steal our signs and relay them to the batter and the batter actually be able to profit from that information then more power to him. It is one thing to know that my Pitcher is about the throw you a cutter...it is another thing to actually hit it.
Just my $.02, but I reserve the right to change my stance as my son gets older ;)
--T
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 20:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by gwinnettdad
If you are a coach or parent stealing signs and relaying them to the batters it is BUSH !!! What are you teaching your kids by doing that? Just because you cant coach doesnt mean its OK to steal signs and then say "its part of the game". If the kids learn it later and make it part of their game its a different story.
I believe that thousands of HS coaches and hundreds of college coaches CAN COACH BASEBALL and are getting paid to do so.....and they definitely steal signs.....Like it or not it is part of the game!! It is gonna always be a part of the game, send a message or change the indicator.....It is very simple to change signs and really mess the opposing team up. We had signs stolen several times last year, changed the indicator and got a free inning from the coach who didn't quite figure it out. We don't do it because I don't think it really makes a difference at the younger ages, a majority of the boys at 13U and under aren't really good enough to capitalize on it...There are exceptions but most boys just aren't that good yet. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 03/15/2011 23:09:53 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 06:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiredgun
Many teams have "spies" in the stands...
Everything in your post but this is part of the game. This is illegal.
"Players, managers and coaches are allowed to try to steal signals, but they cannot use cameras, binoculars or any method beyond their eyes to do so." |
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caughtstealing
20 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 00:40:39
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I heard about the game that Critical Mass is referring and the issue was not with a player or coach stealing a sign(s) - it was a fan or Dad in the stands doing it. I was told by one of the Dads that the coach from the "sign-stealing" team was informed by the coach of the "sign being stolen team" that a parent was doing it and the coach from the "sign-stealing" team said it was bull (cuss word) and would stop right away. Even he thought it was unacceptable.
I know the coaches and the organization in which you are speaking and I can assure you that they would NEVER blame that or any loss on signs being stolen.
Although East Cobb is a very nice place to play and watch a baseball game, the dugouts are still just a chain-linked fence box. You could send a Dad/coach over to their dugout and listen for intel and then run back over to the other dugout. You don’t do this because of professional courtesy, etiquette and you would be considered a goof
As Paul Harvey said, and now you know…
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:07:04
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We love it when Daddy starts relaying pitches from the stands to the batter. We give the Daddy one sign and the catcher another. We don't pay much attention to the other teams signs because we want to focus on our team. If you've been coaching for very long, you should pretty much know what the other team is going to do (steal, bunt, squeeze, hit and run) based on the game situation.
I've yet to see one of our runners thrown out on a pitch out while stealing. Its a low percentage play at our age (11U). We do however pay attention to the pitcher and catcher delivery times. Most of the pitchers we've faced in the last year average about 1.4 to the plate and we've only seen one sub 2 catcher. The batteries we've faced this year average 3.5-3.7 seconds to get the ball from the mound to 2b-- more than enough time to steal for even an average runner who gets a good jump. But the new Patriots BB Academy team had a kid that was an impressive 1.1 to the plate and he was hard to steal on. That's pretty quick! |
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coachpitch
66 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 11:37:42
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My son's new favorite book is "The Cheater's Guide to Baseball." It's a hoot. It's tongue in cheek in a lot of it, but great historical thoughts too. Check it out.
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass
Where do you stand , what's your opinion? If a team can tell what the coach is calling on the bucket...is it unfair to use that data? If the coach doesn't change when he feels the signs are obvious...what should you do?
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Stealing Signs?
