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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2011 : 09:30:21
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| This word always comes to my mind "CODDLING"...... |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 10:10:26
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If stats are going to be displayed, the most important stat is what needs to be shown; "Quality At-Bat".
Quality at bats (any one of: 3 after 2, 6+, SHB, SHF, HD, 2-out RBI)
An at bat in which the batter is productive in a way that fits the situation, whether that involves advancing the runner with a sacrifice bunt or even a ground ball out, getting on base, or making the pitcher throw a lot of pitches. Thus a quality at bat is not measured simply by the standard batting statistics such as batting average, on-base percentage, or slugging average.
Quote from Minnesota Twins catcher Joe Mauer::
"Seeing a lot of pitches, fighting bad pitches off – basically, just waiting for a pitch you can handle. Whether you’re a power guy, or more of a slap hitter guy, if you find a pitch you’re comfortable in handling, that’s a quality at-bat. If you get on base or drive a ball up the gap, you pretty much know you had a good plate appearance. But it’s mostly about making sure you get your pitch." |
Edited by - Alter-Ego on 01/24/2011 10:30:50 |
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Coach D
167 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 13:08:35
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| A-E, I agree . The main thing I share with my son about improving his stats is until you get 2 strikes dont swing at a pitch you cant drive somewhere. If you do you are more often than not going to "waste" that at bat with a dribbler or pop-up. I also agree about quality at-bats. As a coach I like to share immediate feedback if a kid has a quality at -bat do to going deep in the count , fouling off some close pitches ,earning a walk /sac. etc. That way while it may not show on their stats ,they know that they have succeeded that at bat! |
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MGBA
14 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 18:19:35
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Had to chime in as this topic is very interesting and reading the responses I feel that there are a lot of dads responding to this and I'm not sure if this was given a lot of thought as it relates to the psyche of KIDS. My father once told me that "stats are for losers". I tend to agree because it shouldn't matter what your batting average is if you made some contribution to your team's win. Even if you didn't win on the scoreboard, what were the quality of your at bats. That is the best thing about baseball....even in failure, there are successes - moving a runner, sac bunts, etc. Those don't all help the almighty batting average. Johnny may have gotten the hit to drive in the winning run but Jack hit a screamer to the SS who couldn't handle it and beat the throw. It was his at-bat and run that put them in a position to win. But Jack doesn't get the credit (in terms of batting average. Johnny does and everybody is happy.........
At this young of an age, stats are truly for the parents!!! The dads mostly....(im going to leave that alone for now but egos do come into play).....
The best professional players learn that goal setting is about taking charge of those things a player can control. A player cannot control whether he hits .350 but he can control whether he has a good at-bat and swings at good pitches he can drive. Just as a pitcher cannot control whether a batter gets jammed and bloops a hit; but he can control whether he puts in effective work in the bullpen and whether he maintains his concentration on the mound.
Teach your kids to focus on the job at hand, and on the things he can control....that is what leads to reaching great goals. Teach your kids to focus on the journey goals. Those are the ones that lead to destination goals. By focusing on a batting average is the wrong mindset to have as a hitter! It could potentially lead to disaster in terms of a players confidence. If he is not reaching some number (that he is focused on) he tends wo wonder if he's good enough. Again, teach them to focus on the things they can control....quality practices, quality batting practice, quality swings. Ask major leaguers if they focus on getting hits....I guarantee that most if not all will say so. They focus on the quality of their swings and trying to find that pitch that they can handle. |
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GeneralsCoach
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 08:21:23
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| Good discussion. Personally I agree that not publishing the stats becomes more troublesome than publishing them (password protected). However, we also make sure everyone knows what constitutes a hit/error, etc, before the season. Stats are only one tool, though. The quality at bat discussion was on the money. Same goes with pitching. WHIP along with strike/ball ratio is what I like to use on the pitching side... |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 09:38:57
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| Quality AB is very important, that being said at the ages we are talking about 11U, 12U, 13U it is very possible for a player to hit well over .400 and often hit .500....Stats do tell it all with players like that, but for the most part kids that can aren't that common, and focusing on quality at bats and taking pitches is very important to early success. We have played with an 11U kid that could hit it 300ft, but he might strike out 7-8 times between hits...Not very helpful to the overall team. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 09:50:34
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I have seen many disagreements between parents and scorekeeper on whether something is a hit or not. Even on hits, is it a single with a 1 base error, or is it a double. Did you get an RBI, or did the run score on a throw to the wrong cutoff man, etc.
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Stinger44
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:03:09
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I believe that any parent that looks at stats and then uses that information to address a coach about batting order is being short sighted and harmful to the team.
How many times have we seen champion teams 'upgrade' their roster only to fail the next year with 'better' talent, team chemistry destroyed. N o 'I' in team folks. I think the better life lesson taught is that pulling on the rope is not conditional.
Dismounting from soap-box in 3..2..1.. |
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thegoat
29 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:53:19
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Kid goes 2-4.. Gets two hits with no one on, strikes out with bases loaded twice.. another kid goes 1-3 Grounds out to second twice with a runner on third, gets 2 RBI, Gets one hit with bases loaded picks up two more RBI
So kid 2-4 is hitting .500, kid that gets 4 RBI is hitting .333. Leave the stats alone. Don't watch them don't even think about them. Come up with a point system for Quality at Bat.. see who comes up with the most points.. That is the kid you want. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:54:45
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Just some of the problems we had when stats were'nt posted:
1) Coachs son was the best at EVERYTHING!
2) Talking about any player was just an opinion. For this matter anyone on the team could have had the highest average(on base), least errors, best pitching depending on who you asked. Heck, even the team bully could be the best at everything.
3) All these players believed they didn't need to practice extra because they already were studs.
4) NO one learns accoutability.
5) Lots of INTITLMENTS!
6) Super stubs don't have a clearer idea of where to improve.
7) Parents getting pissed off because they really don't know whats going on with there son.
8) Parents with BIG egos always talking about how there son is the best at everything.
9) Kids questioning WHY there are no stats to look at. Yes, there are a lot of smart kids playing ball that truly understand stats and would like to know them. Not just kids with big "egos".
I will admit there are probably kids and parents that could care less about stats. That's great then they just don't have to look at them and that solves everyones problem. For the rest of the team they can use them as they wish. If done correctly, stats don't lie! This is how the game of baseball is measured like it or not. |
Edited by - Gwinnett on 01/25/2011 19:17:04 |
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baldy87
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 11:27:21
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| "A player cannot control whether he hits .350 ...." ???????? If the player doesn't control that, who does? I'm sorry, but I don't understand that one at all. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 12:17:48
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| The team were on now does a combination of both, stats and hitting production sheet. The coach focuses on quality at bats from his hitting sheet. The sheet is like a scoring system. This way even if your average wasn't the highest you could have had the most quality at bats. Not a peep from the parents. As far as the stats, if there is a disagreement the parents vote right then or the coach has the last say. This system keeps everybody happy! And for those who might still disagree then just do your own stats on your son, then you can do whatever you want. Harmony is good for the team! |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 12:38:09
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baldy,
The player DOES NOT control the pitching. He DOES NOT control whether a fielder makes an outstanding play on a ball. He DOES NOT control if he crushes a ball right at a fielder. He DOES NOT control the strike zone called by the umpire. He DOES NOT control what plays the coach calls during his AB.
He DOES control swinging at the right pitch when he see's it. He DOES control not being indecisive when he swings the bat. He DOES control running hard down the baseline. He DOES control executing the play the coach calls. Those are the things they have to focus on. |
Edited by - Alter-Ego on 01/25/2011 12:53:47 |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 14:08:06
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One season, 4 of our 5 lower half hitters each had much better stats than 4 of the 5 top half hitters (all season long). None of us bottom half folks said a word. The line-up never changed. We were sub .500, and we all left afterward. The team dissolved 1 season later. We were the best rope pullers of all time!
quote:
Originally posted by Stinger44
I believe that any parent that looks at stats and then uses that information to address a coach about batting order is being short sighted and harmful to the team.
How many times have we seen champion teams 'upgrade' their roster only to fail the next year with 'better' talent, team chemistry destroyed. N o 'I' in team folks. I think the better life lesson taught is that pulling on the rope is not conditional.
Dismounting from soap-box in 3..2..1..
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 14:44:13
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| These are all the reasons why stats should not be made public. Unfortunately parents and younger players only look at the batting average. There are way more important stats to look at and are beneficial to the coaches. For example Avg w/RISP. Or for pitchers Strike ratio vs. W/L or ERA. When coaches start to talk to some parents about these things they get the glazed look. Public stats are usually the downfall of the team chemistry. |
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baldy87
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 15:53:21
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Look - the guy says the batter can't control whether he hits .350 or not. I say, if not the batter - who can control whether he hits .350 or not? I don't think you answered my question - even with all the capitalized words. Who controls whether the batter hits .350 or not? To say it's not primarily the batter is to insult every hitter who ever hit .350. Inversing your argument would mean that the hitters who do hit .350 do so against weaker pitching, get better calls from the umpires, hit to weaker fielders who don't make difficult plays, and only bat in situations that don't require them to take a pitch, work a count, or bunt or slap a ball into play instead of driving it.
To me, this concept of focusing on a "quality at bat" is fine. Absolutely - you want a kid swinging at good pitches - putting the ball in play when there's a runner to be moved/scored - working a count. Obviously. All that said, they've only been keeping batting averages since they started playing baseball - and they do it for a reason. The examples given of the player in a given game who goes 1 for 3 versus the kid who goes 3 for 4 are the exception - not the rule. And over enough at bats, the rule is - I want the kid who hits the ball hard more consistently - that's the kid who's going to have a higher average.
Totally my opinion, and I've been wrong about many more important things than this, I'm sure. :) |
Edited by - baldy87 on 01/25/2011 19:17:04 |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 18:05:20
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There are two facts at hand here:
1. Stats are an important part of the game.
2. We obviously live in a world where the majority does not want to face reality, take responsibility or better themselves, and they have been teaching their children that this is ok.
Stats, for the most part, are a reflection of a players overall performance of one facet of the game(hitting, pitching, defense). They need to be looked at as a whole to understand a player, and that players role on the team. If you know about baseball, you should be able to understand that your lead off hitter will probably have a higher average, more stolen bases and more runs scored than your #7 hitter. If he doesn't than they need to switch spots, as the lead off position gets more at bats than anybody.
I think people need to be aware of their child's contribution to the team. If little johnny is hitting .167 with 5 rbi's midway through the season, then little johnny's parents need to get him some help, find a less competitive team-league/play something else. Or little johnny needs to work harder before or after practice, or something... not hide the stats so everybody is unaware of little johnny's deficiency.
I asked my 13 year old what he thought about stats being posted, and he said it was a good idea. That it gave them a way to compete with each other and to know who was in the lead in what categories. I asked him what if his stats weren't that great? He said then I need to do something about my play on the field if it embarrasses me.
As for people blaming bad scorekeepers, the score keeper keeps ALL the stats so if an at bat that results in a sac fly is incorrectly marked as an at-bat, its incorrectly marked for everyone that does it. If its a noticeable problem, talk to your score keeper and help them with the rules... If they don't know how to keep the book, then they probably shouldn't be doing it. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 18:09:12
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I think a player controls how well he hits, he does not control how well the other team plays defense. Baseball is a game that is sometimes determined by very small margins. We've all seen what happenes when an outfielder gets a bad jump on a ball, what would've been a catch turns into fielded on a hop or a ball all the way to the fence.
sooner or later, the holes open up and if a kid is a quality ball player his stats will show it.
We are mainly coaches and involved parents here, has anyone had a stud who just had terrible stats? Has your best kid ever carried a bottom three batting or slugging percentage? Best pitcher highest era, most walks?
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 22:50:02
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| My only point is take the right stats into consideration. We had all of our stats, available for the world to see, available last year. They just need to be evaluated more in relation to what the situations were, and not just on face value. (BTW, the capitalization was to emphasize the differences between the statements, and not in a yelling manner.) |
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baldy87
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 08:05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
My only point is take the right stats into consideration. We had all of our stats, available for the world to see, available last year. They just need to be evaluated more in relation to what the situations were, and not just on face value. (BTW, the capitalization was to emphasize the differences between the statements, and not in a yelling manner.)
No harm at all, AE. And at the end, it sounds like we're saying the same thing. The emphasis probably should be on quality ABs and situational hitting. But, even when the emphasis is on those things, over the long haul (not 3 - 5 games, more like 100 plate appearances), the hitter who is doing his job will see his traditional stats improve, whether it's in average, RBIs, On Base Pct., or Sacrifices. Coaches will examine those things to make adjustments to line-ups. When coaches need to make those adjustments, I think it makes a lot more sense for those stats to be accessible by everyone, so that there is no mistaking why decisions were made.
And nastycurve was much more eloquent about writing about this stuff than I'll ever be. Well-written, nastycurve. |
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Stinger44
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 09:14:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
One season, 4 of our 5 lower half hitters each had much better stats than 4 of the 5 top half hitters (all season long). None of us bottom half folks said a word. The line-up never changed. We were sub .500, and we all left afterward. The team dissolved 1 season later. We were the best rope pullers of all time!
quote:
Originally posted by Stinger44
I believe that any parent that looks at stats and then uses that information to address a coach about batting order is being short sighted and harmful to the team.
How many times have we seen champion teams 'upgrade' their roster only to fail the next year with 'better' talent, team chemistry destroyed. N o 'I' in team folks. I think the better life lesson taught is that pulling on the rope is not conditional.
Dismounting from soap-box in 3..2..1..
Well, I didn't say pull on the rope when a rabid badger was attached to the other end  |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 23:08:27
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| thank you much |
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 09:38:20
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| Players lower in the order will get better pitches to hit. "Quality" pitchers will pitch differently to the 1,2,3 hitters than 7,8,9. Pitchers are less likely to go after a 1,2,3 hitter. They often pick at the corners and tend to bank on the batters aggressiveness to swing at less then ideal pitches. Conversely, pitchers will go after the 7,8,9 batters because these hitters usually are not as confident and are often looking to walk. And we all know the cardinal rule, "don't ever ever walk the bottom of the order". If the bottom of the order beats you, hats off to them. They hit in the bottom of the order for a reason. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 18:19:59
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| biged well said. Every now and then I juggle the lineup and throw a stud down there to feast on fastballs. Coaches usually go right after the kids down there and sometime, you gotta make them pay the price :-) Good way to help a slumping kid too. |
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Scorekeeper
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 23:13:10
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Stats don't mean much until the sample size gets near 100 At bats. The averages mean little after 3 or 4 or 8 games. Get up into 20 games and you might have a definite pattern established.
We have kept the stats since 8U, but never posted them online, they were available for coaches and any parent who requested their kids stats.
At year end, we provide all the parents with the official stats.
Stats (for 9U) now are kept as close to 'real' as possible. An error is an error. We do play up a lot into 10U and to be fair to some of the smaller kids we score their hits a lot more leniently than what we score the big hitters. The 4 or 5 big hitters (my son included) better get a clean hit if they want it scored that way. Because they are not outsized or outclassed and .450+ doesn't need any padding of the stats. Some of the smaller kids we've pushed up an age group get more leeway. It serves no purpose to have a kid batting .250 just because he is having trouble driving the ball thru the older infield. Leeway here and there with a .333 average looks and feels a lot more confident.
Think of it as real but fair to all. |
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Publish Statistics?
