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DuluthHardball
12 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2010 : 10:57:24
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| I've been reading a lot of great stuff on the discussion board (especially Orange Beach SNIT) and somebody wrote something that I thought was interesting. The person wrote that people should not put too much emphasis in pool play results and what really counts is what happens on Sunday. I am in agreement with this statement 100% especially if the tournament is not set up with a Gold or Silver bracket after pool play (that calls for a separate discussion). I hear a lot of coaches boast about how great their teams are because they've only lost x number of games in pool play and they automatically assume they can compete to the end with anybody. But when asked how they do on Sundays they sheepishly say they consistently lose in the first round. Folks, these tournaments are endurance tournaments and the top teams (elite teams) will consistently be in the latter part of Sundays because of deep talent and exceptional coaching. So for those of you who think you have a great team because you excel in pool play just remember that they don't give medals for winning pool play. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 16:37:06
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DuluthHardball:
I agree for the most part, but there are other exceptions. Here's my take...
The skill range of the teams participating, and where your teams falls within that range plays a role. The narrower the skill range, the less important pool games are. If its an open tourney however, and your team is AA or AAA, you may want to avoid drawing one of the the Major teams as your first bracket game by trying to win one or two of the pool games.
Bracket design matters too. If some seeds get bye's, those seeds might be worth pursuing if the pitching spent isnt as great as the pitching saved in earning the bye.
Last weekends TC tourney was a great example. After seeing the pool match ups, I was pretty sure that Sandtown would get #1, and 6-4-3C #2. They would be in the top and bottom brackets. If you got the 3 or 4, you'd still get a Saturday night bye, plus avoid Sandtown and 6-4-3C's brackets and wouldnt see them until the final 4. I shared this with some friends, and they got the 3 or 4. Voila! they made it to the final 4 and got an extra game or two by avoiding #1 and #2's brackets. They still got to play a Major team in the final 4 which made them better.
Most of us want to play better teams, but going 3 and out too much gets costly, so you need to assess the field, study the pool match ups, review the bracket layout, then decide if pool wins are worth the pitching burn.
Now, if you are a top flight Major team, you probably don't care. You have the deepest pitching and the best team in many tourneys you enter, so it matters not. These folks don't have to use the noodle too much until the bigger tourneys that draw other top flight Major teams.
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Edited by - bmoser on 04/13/2010 20:24:50 |
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Whitlow
211 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 20:51:25
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Pool Play will be very important in the Triple Crown backyard Brawl. Last weekends Triple Crown Spring Break Extravaganza didn't have separate brackets since only 12 teams played, but there will be 2 or 3 brackets I would assume with 32 teams. This will make it extremely difficult to win along with the 6 innings per pitcher.
I've heard of 3 tournaments this season already where 0-2 teams in pool play have won. The 11U AAA Slugfest, TC Spring break Extravaganza, and the Orange Beach SNIT. Could be these teams are off one day and on the next or that they are simply saving their best pitching or a combo of both. To win the TC Backyard Brawl they will have to be on both days and use good pitching in pool play and have a lot of depth at pitching. |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 22:11:11
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I'll tell you where pool play matters, it matters in the relm of win loss record. If rankings matter to you which in youth baseball they mean nothing but if you care this is where win loss matters.
Example;
Going into the Orange Beach Tournament Lynn Haven Longhorns were ranked 8th and the Bay Bombers were ranked 13th in the Nation. After the Orange Beach Tournament the Longhorns beat the Bombers in the championship game but the Longhorn dropped to 10th and the Bombers moved up to 2nd in the Nation.
In pro baseball teams beat each other all the time but the win loss record is what counts as to who moves on to the playoffs.
Our coach wants and will try to win every game, pool play or bracket! |
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Scoremore
18 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 03:03:38
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In the Orange Beach Super NIT the Longhorns didn't lose to save pitching nor did they plan on losing on Saturday. They just didn't hit or should I say hit the gaps as much as they needed to win the ballgames. There was some great hits and awesome defense in both Saturday games. Sometimes you have an off day and pool play draws can play a big part of it. Some can be given a cake walk while others have to hope everything falls their way and play their A game.
Remember Baseballpapa's rule 5....The kids wake up and remember that they are just 11 years old and act their age. Sometimes, we as fans, have to remember we are not playing the game, it's all up to the boys in the end. We found our boys to perform much better without all the pressure of "having to win" to look good on paper. It all boils down to how you play on the field and where you end up in the end....Sometimes you have to lose to figure out what it takes to be a winner. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 08:11:32
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Yes, teams obviously save their best starters for bracket play to prevent burning them out or overusing them... But, is it 'great coaching' to say that pool play doesn't matter? What lessons does that teach the kids?
It's baseball--every game is a competition. Things like overall win-loss record and USSSA power rating should be a matter of pride for a team, just like winning a tournament is (especially since overall win-loss record in a season is an even bigger test of 'endurance' than winning a single tourney). It's 11U baseball...I'm not sure that "winning a tournament" so you can take home a trophy should take precedence over giving your best effort every time out. |
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Scoremore
18 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 11:47:30
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Bluecup: You may have misunderstood my comment. I never said winning the tournament is all that matters. If your comment is in reference to "it's where they end up in the end" was not meant as the tournament champion. The Longhorns have so many trophies they don't know what to do with. It isn't about the trophy, it's what they have learned along the way. These boys are only 11 years old, not major league prospects. Baseball as well as other youth sports teach our children more than just winning or how to handle defeat.
And I don't believe I said pool play didn't matter, no one wants to lose...tournaments cost too much ! The Longhorn coaches don't wake up in the morning thinking about losing, they go into each game to win, but what it boils down to is will the boys show up to play. Our losses could have easily been on Sunday vs. Saturday. That's why I love the game, unpredictable If you were talking about their website comment I spoke to the author about what he meant I believe it means, even though you end up at the bottom and the team looks bad on paper doesn't mean you're not a force to be reckoned with. You need to come back and show them what you're really made of. Life can be full of second chances. Unfortunately, having a good team play bad in pool play can make a difficult road for higher seeds who have to face them to advance to the championship.
Congrats Bombers- I'd like to add to 10BB's statement of #2 in the nation...they are now #1. |
Edited by - Scoremore on 04/14/2010 13:43:26 |
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Longhorn Fan
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 13:24:22
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| I would honestly like to know who thinks we lost on purpose. Are you out of your mind? The Longhorns attempt to win every game they play in; period! As we have been called in the past, " a paper champion," now I guess we are sandbaggers? Unbelievable! Some people always have excuses over wins and losses. Why is that? We have always received critisism from certain people. First, we don't play real tournaments, we play Dizzy Dean. Now, we play real tournaments but we do not give our best on Saturday so we can win a trophy on Sunday? Our kids know that we expect 110% out of them every time they step on the field. If anybody was even around Saturday after our second loss, you would have noticed our boys running poles behind the field because of the lack effort they displayed on the field. We coach our butts off and give everything we have to the boys and the program. Also, for what it is worth, in our last two Super NIT Championships, we used our # 3 pitcher. Imagine what it would be like using our # 1. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 19:56:59
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Sorry Scoremore, I may not have been clear. My comments were addressed to the original post, not anything you said. And, Longhorn Fan, my comments were definitely not aimed at the Longhorns!!
I haven't seen teams flop on purpose in pool play. That's my point. I don't think there's anything wrong with a coach/team being proud of a win against a good team in pool play, precisely because of that. Yes, you may not have won the tournament, but it's a long season and each game has importance.
Beating a good team in pool play at least shows you can compete. 11U Batters are trying to hit in each AB, and 11U fielders are trying to field every ball, and pitchers are trying to get your team out in every game--if you win against a good team, there's nothing wrong with being proud of that (a coach doesn't need a trophy to be happy with his team's performance...and pool play games shouldn't be trivialized just because they aren't bracket games--they are just another measuring stick). |
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