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GAFarmer
90 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2012 : 09:26:08
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| Since great 12u coaches is getting some traction today. We will slip in a gyro ball. How do the great coaches handle mistakes from their players. Does daddy ball affect the application of instruction? Do paid coaches handle differently? |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 14:12:02
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I by all means am not a great coach, but can share how I approach it with my kids.
I think you will find most coaches with kids on the team are usually harder on their kids. I know I am with mine. Also, if you are going to play with a coach who has a kid on the team, ask the coach where that kid plays and if he sits. That will tell you a lot. SS who never sits...RED FLAG.
I constantly tell my kids I will only get on them for mistakes if they play afraid. IE...if they charge a ground ball, move through it, but just miss it, I won't say anything. If they sidestep the ball, wait for it, and try an ugly backhand, then I will get on them.
I also get on them for mental mistakes. Not knowing which base to throw to, or making a poor decision based on the game scenario. Pickoff's to 3rd late in the game, back picking runners with 2 outs, etc. They love it when I get on them for not doing run downs properly (you don't even see major league teams do it correctly)
All of the other errors, for the most part, I let go as they happen. |
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ballfan14
12 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 16:09:41
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| Based on my experience, paid coaches react no differently than coaches who have a kid on the team. I have not seem all paid coaches at the ballpark, so I am going off just what I have seen at the 12u age group. The assumption is that by having a paid coach, the instruction level goes up and the "daddy ball" aspect goes away. What I have seen is that not all of the "daddy ball" mentality goes away as there are still coaches on the field who have kids on the team. To a certain extent, they still have influence on decisions that are made on the field and sometimes it shows in terms of some aspects of preferred treatment. Granted, not nearly to the same extent as with "daddy ball". The other thing that I have noticed, even with a paid coach, is favoritism is still rampant. The paid coach still has their prodigies on the team and it shows both on game day and in practice. These prodigies can make more mistakes than the other players,, have excuses made for them and not be sat or moved like others on the team. The instruction level does go up, but only for the preferred few....The fact is that whether we are talking about a daddy coach or a paid coach, kids will always be fighting favoritism. This will not go away. Do parents want everyone treated fairly and the same, regardless of who they know or where they are from? Absolutely, it's the right thing to do! What is good for one should be good for the other. Does it happen? Not a chance, at least on the 12u teams that I have seen in the Atlanta area. The sad thing is, it is just as obvious with paid coaches as it is with daddy ball, it has only been put in disguise. |
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PAUL M
6 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 17:01:51
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| BALLFAN14 Thank You Thank You I was going to say the samething myself. It is so sad that to do the wright thing is so hard with kids and then the parents are paying the coach. Like you BALLFAN14 I have seen it and lived it 1st hand and I have no promblem saying it. I will not hide behind a code name because wright is wright and wrong is wrong. Coache's just do wright by the kid's or just stop COACHING. |
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Team Jax
12 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 20:47:02
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| Those that learn from their mistakes are rare and those that handle the mistakes of the player with grace are even rarer. It takes a seasoned coach to understand regardless of paid our unpaid. |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 21:46:32
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| The good thing is this is the perfect example of teaching your kid that life is not fair and that even though you may play by the rules, do your best, work harder than others, have a good attitude, that sometimes you just are not treated equally when it comes to fair chances in many aspects in life. Unfortunately, whether it be college opportunities, job interviews, or you name it, who you know, how you know, when you know, money influence, and a few others that I will not mention on this site tend to drive the fairness out of life. |
Edited by - eastcobbkreskin on 05/01/2012 22:01:45 |
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ballfan14
12 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2012 : 22:38:19
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Eastcobbreskin,
I agree that you can use this experience to try and teach a 12 year old a lesson about life and the curve balls that it throws at you. But honestly,how many 12 year olds are mature enough, mentally, to fully understand it? Not many, if any at all. Additionally, the opposite lesson could be learned.......if you want to succeed in life you have to suck up, bribe, become friends with others, etc just to get ahead in life. Maybe this is why we have so much corruption in politics, businesses and criminals? The fact is, coaches that are paid, or not, should be setting examples for the kids. When they don't, they have fallen short! I guess the MLB players that use steroids to gain advantages could use the philosophy above to justify their actions......... |
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GAFarmer
90 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 07:44:50
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| Why do coaches turn their back on kids when they make a mistake and the player needs the instruction or guidance the most? Is it because the coach is embarrassed? Any failure is on both parties and the coach should be mature enough to use it as a teaching lesson. Too many coaches try to be one of the kids as their angle and then cannot seperate from that. |
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Slurve
12 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 08:36:04
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| To my understanding a paid coach should have a much higher improvement rate with kids than others. How do you approach a coach and tell him that he has favorites or that he isn't given your kid a equal opportunity when it is obvious that is what is happening. |
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JABA
16 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 09:18:57
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| I see "daddy ball" and favoritism on the lower level teams, almost never on the higher level teams. The higher level teams I see consistently play the best players at the positions and batting order they think give the team the best chance to win. They also are HARDER on their own kids and/or favorites than the other kids, more is expected (which isn't fair either by the way). Does it happen? Sure it does, but those teams don't tend to keep players very long, and for good reason. If your kid is not treated fairly by a coach, then you have every right to look for a team that will treat him fair. However, I think many parents confuse the reason why their son does not play a certain position or bat near the top of the lineup. So be honest, are you being fair and objective in your assessment of your player, just as you expect the coach to be? Almost every parent thinks their kid is MUCH better than they really are, and most coaches (paid or not) have a pretty realistic view of where that kid fits on the team. I hear all the time, "my kid hit 2 home runs in rec ball last week" or "my kid struck out 12 kids pitching for middle school". That's great but guess what - it doesn't mean anything when it comes to the travel team, but it definitely influences the parent's view of their kid's abilities and where they should fit on their travel team. The coach has to SEE what the kid can do with the team they coach, not hear about how they did elsewhere. Again, try to be as objective and fair as you expect the coach to be. If you still think it's not fair, find another team, there are plenty out there..... |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 09:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ballfan14
Based on my experience, paid coaches react no differently than coaches who have a kid on the team. I have not seem all paid coaches at the ballpark, so I am going off just what I have seen at the 12u age group. The assumption is that by having a paid coach, the instruction level goes up and the "daddy ball" aspect goes away. What I have seen is that not all of the "daddy ball" mentality goes away as there are still coaches on the field who have kids on the team. To a certain extent, they still have influence on decisions that are made on the field and sometimes it shows in terms of some aspects of preferred treatment. Granted, not nearly to the same extent as with "daddy ball". The other thing that I have noticed, even with a paid coach, is favoritism is still rampant. The paid coach still has their prodigies on the team and it shows both on game day and in practice. These prodigies can make more mistakes than the other players,, have excuses made for them and not be sat or moved like others on the team. The instruction level does go up, but only for the preferred few....The fact is that whether we are talking about a daddy coach or a paid coach, kids will always be fighting favoritism. This will not go away. Do parents want everyone treated fairly and the same, regardless of who they know or where they are from? Absolutely, it's the right thing to do! What is good for one should be good for the other. Does it happen? Not a chance, at least on the 12u teams that I have seen in the Atlanta area. The sad thing is, it is just as obvious with paid coaches as it is with daddy ball, it has only been put in disguise.
So, when does the conspiracy theory stop? HS? Nope, the HS coach didn't pick my kid cause he has his favorites and my son got the short end of the stick. Well, maybe just maybe that other kid is just a better all around ball player then your kid. Most parents really have a hard time accepting that, it's called "daddy goggles" folks. Paid coaches and dad coaches both have challenges, dad coaches are in a no win situation since they have a kid on the team who is always on a microscope. It's been my experience that paid coaches usually have a much different view on who should be playing where and that usually gets the parents upset since lil johnny is usually at SS but now plays LF.
Is there cases of daddy ball or coaches playing favorites? Of course but why is it for parents to own up and hold their own child accountable for what they do on the field? It goes both ways, seen parents blame other kids for errors even tho their kid just made 2 in 1 inning. |
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Tribe
82 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:24:10
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ecbpappi: you're spot on...and I love the "daddy goggles" term. It is much more pervasive than coaches practicing daddy ball, in my opinion.
Frankly, I've noticed that those who complain of daddy ball year after year have merely found a comfortable alibi for why his/her son isn't playing where or when he'd like.
My son has been coached by dad coaches and paid, non-dad "professionals". He has benefited and learned something from each of them.
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BballNut
73 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 11:48:57
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Hmmmm. Your logic requires the kids to be more responsible/mature/accountable than the coaches.
The real answer is that no matter what is said or how we all agree/disagree, this will continue to go on no matter what. Why? Because there are no rules, and at the end of the day, we can't legislate fairness. So, yes, each family gets to decide who they play for the next time around or may even choose to jump ship mid-season, but that same coach will still have 11-12 kids on HIS roster still running HIS team the way HE wants.
It certainly happened more at the younger ages, but I don't see many coaches at 12U sacrificing games/wins for 'Lil Johnny - even when 'Lil Johnny is his son. Most are there to win and usually take no prisoners. I also agree with parents' rose-colored views of their sons abilities. I would almost bet if that kid was as good as his parents think he is, he would be where he is supposed to be in the lineup and in the field. I haven't seen a coach with more than 1 son on the team, so that leaves 9-10 batting spots in the lineup (still 3 open in the top of the lineup) and at least one top fielding position open for Johnny (usually parents think Johnny is the best pitcher or should play SS).
quote:
Originally posted by eastcobbkreskin
The good thing is this is the perfect example of teaching your kid that life is not fair and that even though you may play by the rules, do your best, work harder than others, have a good attitude, that sometimes you just are not treated equally when it comes to fair chances in many aspects in life. Unfortunately, whether it be college opportunities, job interviews, or you name it, who you know, how you know, when you know, money influence, and a few others that I will not mention on this site tend to drive the fairness out of life.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 12:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ecbpappi
quote:
Originally posted by ballfan14
Based on my experience, paid coaches react no differently than coaches who have a kid on the team. I have not seem all paid coaches at the ballpark, so I am going off just what I have seen at the 12u age group. The assumption is that by having a paid coach, the instruction level goes up and the "daddy ball" aspect goes away. What I have seen is that not all of the "daddy ball" mentality goes away as there are still coaches on the field who have kids on the team. To a certain extent, they still have influence on decisions that are made on the field and sometimes it shows in terms of some aspects of preferred treatment. Granted, not nearly to the same extent as with "daddy ball". The other thing that I have noticed, even with a paid coach, is favoritism is still rampant. The paid coach still has their prodigies on the team and it shows both on game day and in practice. These prodigies can make more mistakes than the other players,, have excuses made for them and not be sat or moved like others on the team. The instruction level does go up, but only for the preferred few....The fact is that whether we are talking about a daddy coach or a paid coach, kids will always be fighting favoritism. This will not go away. Do parents want everyone treated fairly and the same, regardless of who they know or where they are from? Absolutely, it's the right thing to do! What is good for one should be good for the other. Does it happen? Not a chance, at least on the 12u teams that I have seen in the Atlanta area. The sad thing is, it is just as obvious with paid coaches as it is with daddy ball, it has only been put in disguise.
So, when does the conspiracy theory stop? HS? Nope, the HS coach didn't pick my kid cause he has his favorites and my son got the short end of the stick. Well, maybe just maybe that other kid is just a better all around ball player then your kid. Most parents really have a hard time accepting that, it's called "daddy goggles" folks. Paid coaches and dad coaches both have challenges, dad coaches are in a no win situation since they have a kid on the team who is always on a microscope. It's been my experience that paid coaches usually have a much different view on who should be playing where and that usually gets the parents upset since lil johnny is usually at SS but now plays LF.
Is there cases of daddy ball or coaches playing favorites? Of course but why is it for parents to own up and hold their own child accountable for what they do on the field? It goes both ways, seen parents blame other kids for errors even tho their kid just made 2 in 1 inning.
So when does a theory cease to be a theory? Hmmmm.
Eastcobbkreskin got it right. Life's not fair. Never was, never will be. Paid or not paid, each coach handles it in their own way. Dad or no Dad, same thing. Some are fair, others are not. Take the opportunity of the obviously unfair moments and teach. If you find that a coach's style and method don't meet your expectation, find another coach.
But don't place all of life's woes on unfairness or a complex will develop and you'll be setting your kid up for a life of excuse making. When it's there, acknowledge it and teach. When it isn't, don't allow it to become an excuse.
To speak to the OP's original question. Great coaches see mistakes as opportunities to teach and develop. They do so understanding each player's abilities. There are good mistakes and bad mistakes. If you make an error because you went about everything the correct way, just didn't execute (i.e., took proper angle, bent knees on a backhand, etc., ball just caught you in the heel of glove), then that's a good mistake. Kid did everything right and great coach will reinforce that to the player and encourage him that he'll get the next one. If the kid didn't do it right and "caused" the mistake, the great coach will teach the player what their mistake was and should work in the future to teach the proper way to resolve. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 05/02/2012 17:22:39 |
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is it spring yet
30 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 12:47:54
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| One thing about it with teams that are coached by a father, And I am not a coach by the way, But he is out there for his kid and there is nothing wrong with that. If his kid wasnt there he would not be there. That being said, He is also donating his time and effort to all of the kids on the team and should never be critisized for decisions he makes. Should you be able to talk to him about concerns you have, with respect, sure. Never forget if he is not getting paid he is coaching your kid by the kindness of his heart, and anyone who has coached, and I have in the past, it is a full time job. I am not always happy with the situation my kid is in, But I will always use that as a learning tool for him, I will express my thoughts to the coach, But I always remember it is his team and he has the right to do what he wants with it. I have the right to change if it is not a good fit but would never speak poorly of someone who has taken their time to work with my kid. To all coaches out there, I appreciate what you do. |
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spike
41 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 12:55:37
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| Where kids play on teams is always interesting we always just use it as an opportunity to learn new posisition and by the way you may be shocked at what you learn. Most kids play because they love the game and truely dont care where that is, however where they are batting should be different ITS ALL ON PAPER, assuming its accurate averages an on base percentage and speed allows anyoneone to make a good lineup. Chipper Jones is not batting 3rd now eather was Jeff Francour when he left the braves. Your best bat at the top because they get more at bats and usually come to the plate in key situations. Now just because a kid goes 0 for the weekend doesnt warrant a move but it should raise some concern an after 100 at bats a coach should have pretty accurate assesment of his lineup. |
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field6
72 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 13:41:26
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| I say this to be safe. Don't involve yourself as a coach unless you can accept the talent of your kid. If your a coach and your child is not up to snuff you know it. If one can't accept this because of blinders well it just sucks for the whole team. It won't be long......just wait....a reality show on these very topics will happen soon. Then we can all sit back and see how stupid people act over this. Have you caught any of the dance moms series. I catch myself watching bits of it as I dial thru thru the channels. Soon there will be "Baseball Parents" it will be very entertaining and what we all know goes on behind the backs of coaches will be revealed. We also played for a paid coach....he had his favorites as well. For the most part though he did play the most talented and sit the least. |
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Soxfan
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 14:31:12
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| In response to JABA, the "daddy ball" system only works for a few years. After a while, the coach's kids will play for a team where they have little or no influence and they (the kids) are hit with reality as to where they stand with talent and/or skill. Quite often, the "daddy ball" coaches already realize that if they weren't coaching, little Chip may not be playing at the higher levels. Yes, there are a lot of other teams out there if the kids are not being treated fairly, but why can't the coach be an adult about it and realize that he or she is not perfect and can make mistakes also? At the end of the day, it's about the kids and their development anyway. |
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GAFarmer
90 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 16:56:17
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We as parents, coaches paid and not paid, knowledgeable and know-it-alls need to read this carefully!
HE IS JUST A LITTLE BOY
He stands at the plate,
with his heart pounding fast.
The bases are loaded,
the die has been cast.
Mom and Dad cannot help him,
he stands all alone.
A hit at this moment,
would send the Team home.
The ball meets the plate,
he swings and he misses.
There’s a groan from the crowd,
with some boos and some hisses.
A thoughtless voice cries,
strike out the bum.
Tears fill his eyes,
the game’s no longer fun.
So open your heart,
and give him a break.
For it’s moments like this,
a man you can make.
Please keep this in mind,
when you hear someone forget.
He is just a little boy,
and not a man yet. |
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Bob Balker
456 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 19:19:47
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My son does not play in this age group but has been playing travel ball since 8U (I know too early in some eyes) and there have been some great posts before, including recently Mike Mathenys letter on the general discussion board, but that might be the best thing I have EVER seen on this website, the little boy poem.
Ga Farmer-I would urge you to post that in General Discussion, as not everyone goes thru the different age groups. That right there is what this board is all about. It takes one heck of a man (adult) to say the right thing to a kid (of any age) when he doesn't get that big hit and feels like he let his team down.
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Edited by - Bob Balker on 05/02/2012 21:29:57 |
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JABA
16 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 20:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Soxfan
In response to JABA, the "daddy ball" system only works for a few years. After a while, the coach's kids will play for a team where they have little or no influence and they (the kids) are hit with reality as to where they stand with talent and/or skill. Quite often, the "daddy ball" coaches already realize that if they weren't coaching, little Chip may not be playing at the higher levels. Yes, there are a lot of other teams out there if the kids are not being treated fairly, but why can't the coach be an adult about it and realize that he or she is not perfect and can make mistakes also? At the end of the day, it's about the kids and their development anyway.
I don't disagree with that at all, I'm not sure how that's in response to my quote, you may want to re-read. All I was saying is that the better teams that have dad's at coaches tend to be harder on their kids and more realistic about where they stand versus the lower level teams. Every coach realizes they are not perfect, trust me, but a good coach will be fair and consistent in how he deals with his mistakes and those of his players. He will also communicate what a player needs to improve on with both the kid and the parent, as well as what they are doing well. Again, parents need to be more realistic about their kids abilities in determining if their coach is "good", in my opinion. |
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resumetoproveit
85 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2012 : 00:24:19
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Lower your expectations as it does not matter in the end. Or coach a team of your own and you can make the decisions. NF has some great rec ball programs.
quote:
Originally posted by nfbm
coaches need to be honest up front with the parents instead of sugar coating a position. if your tell their son is playing the infield after making the tryouts then why are you putting him in the outfield at game time. Sure you might put him at a base once or twice but not when the game is on the line. Always end up with the coaches sons in the infield and its a rarity to find one of them in the outfield. If the coach needed an outfield fielder than should of picked up a kid that played that position. Your son is not going to be ready for high school ball if hes not playing to his full potential. There are only 6 12U major teams in NF 30 in SF & GA so its slim pickings for us on the north to find what your looking for.
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GAFarmer
90 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2012 : 10:04:51
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Bob thank you for the tip I will do that. I witnessed some great coaching over the weekend but it was the negative that broke the camels back and caussed me to create a user ID and chime in.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Balker
My son does not play in this age group but has been playing travel ball since 8U (I know too early in some eyes) and there have been some great posts before, including recently Mike Mathenys letter on the general discussion board, but that might be the best thing I have EVER seen on this website, the little boy poem.
Ga Farmer-I would urge you to post that in General Discussion, as not everyone goes thru the different age groups. That right there is what this board is all about. It takes one heck of a man (adult) to say the right thing to a kid (of any age) when he doesn't get that big hit and feels like he let his team down.
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resumetoproveit
85 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2012 : 22:12:15
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I'm talking both major and rec ball. If you can't find a fit goto rec ball and save a few Benjamin's. As a parent you should teach your kid like one of the previous posters stated to respect the coach even if they are wrong. Yours nor your son's expectations should ever be lowered by anyone. Be proud you have the gift of playing and watching as many do not have that luxury. Whether it is in top flight travel or everyday rec.
quote:
Originally posted by nfbm
talking NF Major teams, no time to coach but to find (pay) one thats not going to lower my son's or other players expectations as we move to the big fields next year. Not mattering Is where you are mistaken. quote]Originally posted by resumetoproveit
Lower your expectations as it does not matter in the end. Or coach a team of your own and you can make the decisions. NF has some great rec ball programs.
quote:
Originally posted by nfbm
coaches need to be honest up front with the parents instead of sugar coating a position. if your tell their son is playing the infield after making the tryouts then why are you putting him in the outfield at game time. Sure you might put him at a base once or twice but not when the game is on the line. Always end up with the coaches sons in the infield and its a rarity to find one of them in the outfield. If the coach needed an outfield fielder than should of picked up a kid that played that position. Your son is not going to be ready for high school ball if hes not playing to his full potential. There are only 6 12U major teams in NF 30 in SF & GA so its slim pickings for us on the north to find what your looking for.
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Blackfox
53 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2012 : 16:27:54
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my sons are on good teams now and it has been $$ well spent. if only there weren't more major teams avail next year for those upcoming. Respect is never an issue, players learn by example. If coaches are wrong own it and not blame others or exploit players, be upfront at tryouts to avoid mistakes on the field was suggested, thats all. Sorry to strike a cord
quote:
Originally posted by resumetoproveit
I'm talking both major and rec ball. If you can't find a fit goto rec ball and save a few Benjamin's. As a parent you should teach your kid like one of the previous posters stated to respect the coach even if they are wrong. Yours nor your son's expectations should ever be lowered by anyone. Be proud you have the gift of playing and watching as many do not have that luxury. Whether it is in top flight travel or everyday rec.
quote:
Originally posted by nfbm
talking NF Major teams, no time to coach but to find (pay) one thats not going to lower my son's or other players expectations as we move to the big fields next year. Not mattering Is where you are mistaken. quote]Originally posted by resumetoproveit
Lower your expectations as it does not matter in the end. Or coach a team of your own and you can make the decisions. NF has some great rec ball programs.
quote:
Originally posted by nfbm
coaches need to be honest up front with the parents instead of sugar coating a position. if your tell their son is playing the infield after making the tryouts then why are you putting him in the outfield at game time. Sure you might put him at a base once or twice but not when the game is on the line. Always end up with the coaches sons in the infield and its a rarity to find one of them in the outfield. If the coach needed an outfield fielder than should of picked up a kid that played that position. Your son is not going to be ready for high school ball if hes not playing to his full potential. There are only 6 12U major teams in NF 30 in SF & GA so its slim pickings for us on the north to find what your looking for.
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Edited by - Blackfox on 05/04/2012 18:38:27 |
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