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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2011 : 14:45:45
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| Question for the board, how common is it to see teams bat all 11/12 kids on Sundays at this age group? This would be for all classes, AA, AAA and Majors. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 17:42:39
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| Bandits tried batting 12 in the first game of the Sandy Plains tournament and it didn't work so well but that's not to say that it won't always work. We started batting 10 and substituting after the first game and got things rolling. We might try it again but I don't think it would be any time soon. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 23:44:07
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| I don't usually ever agree with the batting the entire lineup....On every single team we have ever played on or against the bottom of the team sticks out just like the top. It isn't usually fair to the top 9-10 who are playing. I know I ALWAYS would rather my #3 or #4 guy get an extra at bat. This is the part of the game that I hate the most, playing time not being equal. It is unfortunate for the 10-11-12 guys, but I think coaches should be extremely up front about this and pick up more "role player" type guys. Not every team is built like the Bandits but I honestly believe batting all 11-12 kids on our teams in the past has cost us many wins, and possibly the reason kids left for better teams. That is almost always in the first 3-4 things I ask a coach when looking at a team, a kid that trys out good in July might be horrible next April and he shouldn't hold the rest of the team down(especially if this player isn't at practice!) |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 02/25/2011 09:24:26 |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 08:28:14
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| Most teams bat the roster in pool play but not on Sundays |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 14:49:53
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I think if a player is good enough to make a team and pay the same amount of money the other players have paid he should get to bat in pool play games. How else is he going to get any better. If you bat him 12th he will still have a lot less at bats than the top 4. Probably close to 100 at bats for lead off and 2nd batter. About 8 to 10 less for the 3rd and 4th guys. About 40 less for the last 2 batters when batting the whole team. Question for Spartan4 would you let your son play on a team if you were told upfront he was going to be the kid that didn't get to bat most of the time? Some kids slump and if they slump and never get a chance to hit how do you know they are out of the slump if they never bat?
12U shouldn't be about wins but developing players. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 22:57:59
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Two things HITANDRUN, I was referring to elimination games. Obviously at this age most teams will bat the roster during pool play, but when the age comes that teams carry 15-16 kids then that has to stop(some kids are pitcher only)...Also, for the millionth time it seems, saying it should be about development and not wins is overlooking a lot of teams out there....What about the programs who can consistently do both?? It can be done both ways, and it is by multiple programs year after year in different age groups. EC and 643 are just two of many programs who take TALENTED individuals and make them better.
And to answer your question, before our team came together this past season it was made completely clear and upfront that playing time is to be EARNED by each and every player and at each and every position....Just like it should be, we do generally bat the roster in pool play, but we bat our starting 9 in elimination games and use our remaining players as subs. Never one time this season(Win or Loss) has a player failed to make it into a game, I totally agree about slumping players as well and our starting 9 has been changed to keep the hot players hot already this season. One thing about baseball is you will have to sit, no matter how good you are. One thing I believe our team will get better at is giving players a little while to sit before and after they have been on the mound. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 03/03/2011 23:37:33 |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:41:08
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I understand and it sounds like you guys are doing the best way.
When I read your post I didn't realize you were saying elimination games only.
I will also mention 643 in plays pool games switch hit and move kids around, I believe they are more focused on development than winning although they can do both. There are only a few that can do that.
I will also mention if playing time is earned there should be no coaches with players on the team, no matter how you look at it, coaches always think their players are better than they are. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 14:13:56
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My original post didn't specify.
Not all the 643 teams do that, a lot of them do tho. And while we have certainly been on or seen some teams where coaches kids weren't that great, I believe we set expectations early this season and it has worked for us. What about the coaches with players that are that particular teams stud? Bottom line is coaches kid or not having more than 9-10 players promotes competition, and while mine is the starting SS we have a couple of other kids who are more than capable of sliding in if he doesn't continue to perform. Kids can get lazy and begin to feel like they aren't going anywhere when they start long enough at one position. For the coaches who do treat their son better than the rest of the team I wish they would find a way to have 12 coaches and take some more just like them!! |
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 14:18:59
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Developing players also means teaching them how to compete and work toward earning their spot. Pool play is the place the get a chance to show what they have learned and much desire they have. On Sundays, those who are making adjustments and "want it" are the ones that earn it.
Bottom line for me is that at this age kids need to learn how to compete. If they don't hit as much or where they want in the lineup, then there needs to be a desire to get better and earn it. Too many times parents over-protect their kids. I think middle schoolers need to try and figure it out on their own. My opinion only. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 14:40:53
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99.5% of the games my sons played in, everyone's hit. I recall 1 exception...big tourney, bracket game, playing stronger team. It felt like the right thing to do at the time, but not in hindsight.
I'd rather go down as a team than not let a T-Ball through 12U player hit. I can't speak for 13U on up.
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11baseball11
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 15:27:51
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| Hit and run, I can tell you as a coach that has a son on the team, that when it comes to sitting a player, I start with my own son just for that reason. I hate daddy ball and go out of my way to make sure I set an example for all to see. I think most coaches are tougher on there own son, but it still happens with some coaches. Not trying to slam anyone but that was a broad statement about coaches kids and only applies to some not all. Coaches that do do it should get out of coaching and a coaching staff that communicates as a group with team first seem to have less problems with it. Hope that a bad experience didn't happen to you to feel so stongly about it, because it has happened to me before and it does stink watching the coaches son make error after error while a better player sits. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 22:03:09
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I may have just a little different take on this. Again, this is just my personal feelings on this subject.
Up front the kids and parents are told that starting positions are earned during practice and in game performance. Start the best 9 kids and let the others get their at bats during pool play(liberal substitutions), but come bracket time, field the best team. Someone screws up during bracket play, replace them. Bat only 9 during bracket play so the top of your order gets up as many times as possible. Players at the 12u level each has a role on a team, be it backup catcher or SS. Kids know who the best on their team is. Don't put someone in just because he hasn't played in this particular game.
I've seen more kids learn to dislike players because little Johnny went in with the team up by 2 runs and then Johnny gives up 3 runs or several errors. Good practice habits usually translates to good game play. Again, if it were a perfect world all kids would be equal in ability... but its not.
I speak from both sides of this subject. Three boys, and not all of equal ability. I've seen one of mine ride the pine through some of his high school baseball seasons and can't fault the coach for not playing him more. There were just better players and there's no "I" in team. Sad, but I understand the coaches thoughts. These are young men and are smart enough to know the reasons for not playing. Keep parent politics out of the dugout. Coaches have enough to worry about let alone trying to get little Johnny in for an at bat at a crucial time in a tournament. I paid my money and hope the skills he learned and the friendships he made with his high school(travel) mates will make up for any short-comings in his abilities.
We left rec ball because we wanted to get the best 9 kids on the field to win. If I just wanted to make sure my son got his 2 innings in the field and 2 at bats I would have stayed there.
I know this will probably rub some folks the wrong way but again its just my personal thoughts with my sons and their teams. |
Edited by - seminole tony on 03/04/2011 22:51:43 |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 11:40:55
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| How would most of you define "earning your spot" to 12 year olds? |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 14:01:49
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Starting spot- one of the most consistent at practices and during game situations. Accepts criticism and applies it. Not a player one would worry about if he were put into a tough situation on or off the field. Makes good choices.
Role player- Much of the same as above but might have some ruff edges. Still a player a coach can work with and who is still striving to be a starter. A role player may make more practices but may not still be as talented as a starter. Nothing against the child it's just "genetics and practice habits".
Both these players have "earned a spot".
It is touchy how I may explain it to a twelve year old though.
Not saying these children earned their spot, just a parents observation.
Watch the kids play in between games.
Let top two players take turns picking teams(they will decide captains) and your starters usually end up being first 9-10 picked anyway. This is something I noticed between games at a tournament last year. No parent or coach influence, just kids playing with a tennis ball. Our team has a good chemistry of kids/parents and kids know their abilities and those of their team mates. Don't short change them. With mine, we set goals in his particuliar game that needs to be worked on. This makes him see his game and what his short comings are. Invest in a cam-corder and use it. It has help our game 100%. Review games and he can see what he's doing wrong, be it hitting or setting his feet correctly for throws. Plus, now years later I still smile at games from 7-8 years ago when we watch with family members.
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 16:44:20
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Well said Seminole.....
I was under the impression I paid $1500 a year for my nephew to recieve instruction and play against the best talent and teams our area had to offer. One of the biggest reasons we started travel ball in the first place was the "pay to play" mentality of rec ball. It is frustrating to have the same 1-2-3 kids make a majority of the errors with a minority of the playing time. It is no doubt difficult to explain this to a 12U kid but in all fairness if they are THAT far out of place then the coach either made a mistake at tryouts(some kids have amazing tryouts) or the kid has parents who have the blinders on and will ONLY play on major type teams(bunch of those parents out there, typically blame everything on "daddy ball" when daddy has a stud on the team). There are many many AA/AAA teams who are completely ok with batting all 11-12-13 players, they are out there and if that is what you or anyone is looking for it is absolutely ok. But to be fair to the elite type teams out there, there is nothing wrong with batting 9-10 during bracket games either. More of an each his own type deal
To elaborate on what Seminole said, watch the kids...They know exactly who 11-12 players are. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 03/07/2011 21:51:09 |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 09:10:58
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"I was under the impression I paid $1500 a year for my nephew to recieve instruction and play against the best talent and teams our area had to offer."
Imagine paying $1,500 and your son sitting the bench most of time, if you were not told before hand where he stood. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 12:56:28
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You'll be surprised at the parents of kids who play travel ball and still think that their child is the next Jeter. Put them on a squad of really good players and then watch the true cream rise to the top. This may be a bad generalization but most teams really only have 2-3 stud players if that. It's not till you reach the true top tier majors do you find 8-9-10 studs on one team. And even then some of those players travel with several teams.
The secret to being happy on your team is to match coaching philosophies, player abilities, expectations and monetary needs. Hiding any one(or two) is a recipe for disaster. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2011 : 14:13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
"I was under the impression I paid $1500 a year for my nephew to recieve instruction and play against the best talent and teams our area had to offer."
Imagine paying $1,500 and your son sitting the bench most of time, if you were not told before hand where he stood.
Imagine the top 9 who payed $1500 only to have the same 2 or 3 players cost you games every weekend!! |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 08:46:22
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| If most teams only have 2-3 stud players then bat them all, all the time. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 09:47:19
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Spartan4 said: "Imagine the top 9 who payed $1500 only to have the same 2 or 3 players cost you games every weekend!!"
Why did the Coach select these 2 or 3 weak players to be on his team?
Did he make a mistake? If not, did he explain his bat 9 policy to all his parents before they accepted their spot on his team?
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 20:29:36
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| Our coach did a great job setting the expectations WAY before the season started. Last season we had a situation like I described. 3 players who really didn't help the team, they were selected by our "pro" coaches. We don't have that problem at all this season, just showing the ordeal from both sides. I put a lot of emphasis on winning games, mainly because most of them are winnable. I could completely see it from the 10-11 players point of view, but there are 9-10 other points of view to look at too. Pretty sure I posted it above, we hit 11 in the pool games and 9 in bracket, and not once this year have we failed to get every kid playing time. We will probably have games where 1 or 2 don't play, but the parents knew in advance that playing time was to be earned and we will bat our best 9 on sundays. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 13:26:34
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| Okay I will admit when I am wrong. I was wrong bat 9 and make the others earn their spots like most of you said. Son's team lost a game in pool batting all 12 players where the team we faced batted 9, faced the same team in elimination and run ruled them because we only batted 9. What sux is these tournaments that have Gold and Silver Divisions if you want to get into the Gold Division, you must play your pool games like elimination games now. |
Edited by - Hurricane on 03/15/2011 19:26:31 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 21:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
Okay I will admit when I am wrong. I was wrong bat 9 and make the others earn their spots like most of you said. Son's team lost a game in pool batting all 12 players where the team we faced batted 9, faced the same team in elimination and run ruled them because we only batted 9. What sux is these tournaments that have Gold and Silver Divisions if you want to get into the Gold Division, you must play your pool games like elimination games now.
I had a coach tell me two weeks ago if you gave him the top 10 kids in the nation he would be able to tell the difference between the #9 and #10 kid!!! not sure that I could see that differnce.., it isn't for everybody that is for sure. I'm worried about us having to bat 9 in pool play to keep up with the Joneses. If it has to happen then we will do so, I agree 100% about the different divisions. I would prefer to see teams play within their respective classifications instead of split brackets. But those tourneys are pretty cool because you can see so many more teams as opposed to the same 4-5 major teams every weekend. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 00:33:02
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| I think where it gets complicated is when you have specialty postions that have to play in bracket that aren't batting better than maybe other players that play multiple positions. For instance, if you have 4 great out fielders and only one catcher, the catcher has to play because no one else catchs. So if the catcher has a lower batting average than his teammates who are sitting the bench--how do you handle that? It seems like you have no choice but to bat your catcher. Am I right? |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 09:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
I think where it gets complicated is when you have specialty postions that have to play in bracket that aren't batting better than maybe other players that play multiple positions. For instance, if you have 4 great out fielders and only one catcher, the catcher has to play because no one else catchs. So if the catcher has a lower batting average than his teammates who are sitting the bench--how do you handle that? It seems like you have no choice but to bat your catcher. Am I right?
Gwinnett,
There is truth to your logic, you can't always go by the top 9 by BA. |
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HomerunHitter
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 18:13:56
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| Most teams that lose lose because daddyball becaus the stick there kids high in the order while the best kids sit the whole game and not even bat in the tournament. |
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