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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
 Posted - 08/09/2010 : 15:48:11
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Just curious, how do other parents go about making a decision to play for one team or another? I listen to some of these coaches and have to shake my head in amazement. The one thing I really hate is daddy ball but why do coaches at this level still do it and yet promise you that lil johnny will play where his son or another kid does?
Also, one thing that really concerns me about a coach, why is it that their child is the least skilled player on the team? Isn't this daddy ball at it's finest? What does that say about their coaching ability if their own kid can't hit? Am I being too harsh on some coach's kid?
I'm trying to make the best choice but can't help think of these scenario's as a logical thinker. |
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prestont
197 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2010 : 18:50:52
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ecbpappi -
Good to hear that your son did well, and he has choices too!
It is the courting time of year ;-)
We moved over to ECB a year ago, and it really was a good move for our family. My son really improved, and had lots of opportunity to grow as a player and mature as a kid. Our son understands that he has to work hard to earn, and take advantage, of his opportunities. Our primary factors in making a decision have been; instruction + opportunity.
Really the best advice is to do your homework, find out about last years team and kids, find out why kids stayed (& not) and most importantly (& as other threads have stated) make the best decision for your son and your family.
There are LOTS of teams out there - involve your son in the decision, and best of luck finding the right opportunity for him and your family this year! |
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mstimpson
57 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2010 : 20:23:07
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Hello ecbpappi,
Let me start by saying that I understand your viewpoint, but in my opinion, you are being too harsh on a coach's kid! If it were another kid besides the coaches kid, would one be so critical? You are not the first to bring up the abilities of a coach's child in relation to "daddy ball" or if the coach is a solid coach. Being a former head coach, whose son was on my team, I feel it is more important to look at the ATTITUDE of the coach's son in this equation. It should actually factor in more than ability. To me this is an indication of how and what a coach will tolerate on a team.
I know a lot of head coaches that will gladly tell you that their child is not the best on the team, but if they are willing to volunteer their time to develop children outside of their own, why not have your son there as well. As people have mentioned before, you have to have these dads in order to have these teams. Now, as the boys get older and play school ball or advance in an organization like ECB, the need for parent volunteers will subside. All the dads that I know and coach are truly out there for others and I appreciate what they do. Some may not agree with the way they may do things, but as I mentioned earlier as the boys get older, the process will take care of itself. Just my two cents! Good luck in your search for a team! |
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2010 : 22:17:37
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As a parent, we all want to hear that our kid will get a shot SS or maybe 2B. The question, how likely is that going to happen if the head coach's kid plays one of those spots? It's very sad when another player who would be better at that spot doesn't get the chance to play and excel there due to "daddy ball" but one has to ask what is the coach's goal? Play at a high level or cater to his own kid's ego?
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 08:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by prestont
Really the best advice is to do your homework, find out about last years team and kids, find out why kids stayed (& not) and most importantly (& as other threads have stated) make the best decision for your son and your family.
Now here is a great piece of advice, ask the coach how many players are returning from the previous year's team. You'd be surprised by some of the answers you'll get. Most teams will only lose 2-4 each year but others will continually lose 5+ each season.
If a team has added more then a dozen players in the past 2 season, what does that say about their program? |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 11:26:29
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Two things jump out to me on this.
1) we throw the word "EGO" around too much. We say that a coach allowing his son to play a position he enjoys is catering to his ego. I would say it is allowing him an opportunity to develop at a position he likes. Much like the parent that has a child playing that same position says they want.
In many of the cases where I hear complaints about a coach playing their son over a kid that is percieved to be more talented, the difference is not that substantial (I have seen a few situations where the kid did not need to be playing the position AT ALL, but those were rare.) It is the most substantial in the mind of the other kid's parents.
If a team is being successful, very rarely is the coach putting his kid in a position to truly hurt the team. There is just a bigger microscope over the things he does. All kids have flaws in their game. Some are just scrutinized more closely than others.
2) It is not always a good assumption that if a team loses many of it's players, something is wrong. The question is "Why did they leave?" Particularly in the EC program, it may have been because the players developed and moved up to a more competitive team. I would strongly suggest talking to kids that left a team and ask "Would you play for the coach again if the situation came up?" That will tell you a lot. If they say no, then ask what was it about how he coached that they did not like. You may be surprised that the things they did not like might be just what you are looking for (practiced too much. played too many local tournaments and did not travel enough. Played kids in different positions and did not let me play the one position I liked the most, all the time. etc)
I say all this because I think a blanket gets thrown over dad's that coach and are all labeled as Daddy Ballers. I just see too many that are not.
Yes they may clap a little louder when their kid makes a play, or gets a hit, but you try sitting over in the stands and show and feel the same emotion for your kid, when they do something good, as you do the kid of the parent sitting beside you. It is impossible to do. It's called human nature. What people forget is that these coaches also lement a lot more when their kid does not succeed. They are typically more likely to play it off when another kid fails, but feel the stress when theirs does.
I am just saying, like prestont did, do your homework and find out the real details. Your kid might miss out on a great experience with a wonderful coach if you don't. |
Edited by - Alter-Ego on 08/10/2010 11:47:58 |
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JBR
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:09:53
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I'll bet for every dad who is truly guilty of "daddy ball" there are an equal number of dads who coach who hold their own kids to a higher (and arguably unfair) standard than they hold the rest of the team to with regards to positions, batting order, playing time, proving themselves, etc. I've seen it both ways, a lot.
Preston hit it right on the head: this aren't a whole heckuva lot of secrets in travel baseball, at least not in this area. It shouldn't take but a few phone calls or e-mails to identify whether a team or coach - or more importantly: the entire coaching staff - is someone you want your son to play for. My $0.02. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:59:15
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| Most coaches are dads, they are the ones willing to donate their time and money in an effort to help all of the kids. I have seen both sides of this, dads that are afraid to put their son at short or on the mound cause they don't wanna hear some whiny parents complain even though the coaches kid is the best player on the team. I have also seen coaches son's that couldn't catch a cold make 10 errors at SS in one inning. One coach we played for played 3b in college, guess where his son played?? It isn't uncommon but I don't think it is very common either. Play for the team where you think your son will learn the most, I put a premium on winning and also playing only major talent. I don't think it does a kid any good to face pitchers who throw 52 right across the belt. I am interested in hearing more opinions on this topic |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 16:21:19
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As a Coach, all we owe our players and parents is honesty. You owe that to yourself and your own son, too. Coaches who focus only on their own kid or just the "good" ones usually wind up with a team that has bad chemistry. Players know when they are not being treated fairly.
I believe that what parents and players want is to be given a fair opportunity to compete, to learn about the game and improve, and to be able to enjoy the game. Some families place a higher importance on winning and being on a winning team. Nothing wrong with that, but players (and coaches/parents) have virtually no control over the outcome of what happens in a game. When you ride the results rollercoaster, the tendency is to melt down or point fingers rather than accept responsibility for your performance.
Placing proper focus on things that a player can control, such as their attitude, effort and game focus, are the surefire way to boost performance and enhance the result. Your team can play its best baseball ever and still lose 1-0. Winning is sure nice and I would not deny that I want to win as much as anyone else. But for my team we strive to make winning the natural byproduct of the things that are really important, rather than the most important thing.
Does that philosphy cost my teams wins? Absolutely. But if I pull a pitcher every time he struggles, rather than give him an opportunity to work his way out of a jam, how will he ever learn to do it? How his teammates evr learn to pick him up? Baseball is a game of failure. The players who learn to fail the least become the best players. And without failure there can be no meaningful success or growth, in basbeall or any endeavor that a player may choose during his life. |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 09:13:26
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You guys all make some very good points and I know most of you guys are coaches and applaud you for the time and effort put into kids athletics. I have watched many of these coaches in action and most are class acts but I've also watched several who make you wonder why they do it? I know of one coaches wife telling her husband during a game that their child will not be moved from an infield position and that playing OF was not for him and guess what, he didn't play OF even when their up 12-1.
Playing time at the primary positions should be by merit and not by if your dad is the coach or assistant coach, that sends the wrong message to the other players and will prevent your team from playing at a high level. So the parents who are trying to broker a deal by saying my son will play for you but needs to play here or there, c'mon people get a grip. All I ask that my son get a chance to earn his spot at his favorite position but if not I would hope that the coach puts him where he can help the team.
BTW, I was told by several coaches that they were going to play "majors" next season and one team was a AA one last year, lol! I guess everyone will tell you what you want to hear. |
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GA Grays
42 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 10:21:21
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| The funny thing is when you mention key positions. Primarily in most games we played 2b received more action than ss. Also, OF is definitely a premium and will become one even more now that the size of the field changes. A lot of these middle infielders will be playing on the grass at some point anyway. And, if they grow and obtain some serious size, the corners are where they will be. Playing multiple positions is a plus at any age. It makes you more valuable to any team. Also, it's not easy to just go out and shag balls in the OF. Outfielders are always a premium on any team. Errors at the MI just seem to be focused on more. Playing in the OF grass in T-ball was different when you didn't see any action. I was guilty as a coach in T-ball as the OF was punishment. Now kids and parents associate it with punishment or not being a good fielder. That's the wrong attitude to take. Speed and strong arms are needed out there. If your son has these tools a coach will notice and put them out there. As a coach I'll tell you it's a key position and not just CF. More runs are scored or additional bases earned on OF errors at this age than booted or overthrown balls. Missing cut offs, going to the wrong base will cost a team runs. All 9 positions are key when playing good teams. So key positions were a rage at t-ball only IMO. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 13:15:33
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| I agree 100% Grays and I think my comment about SS might have been taken the wrong way. I was simply saying that when you have your ace pitcher on the mound and you take a kid who is an outfielder only or really a rec ball player who is participating over his head errors will hurt confidence. BTW the reason your team has so many balls hit to 2nd is because all your pitchers are flamethrowers!!! |
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ecball
72 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 15:03:46
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I coach the ECB Braves and will chime in as this is a topic that is often discussed and most of the time misunderstood by both sides. Coaching a team and having a son on it is very difficult unless your kid is the best pitcher and SS in the state. If that is actually the case (very rare), you are usually out recruiting better players to win a national championship. Once you find better players (and they are out there), now you are right back in the situation most coaches face, which is their son isn’t the best kid on the team and where do I play him, bat him and when/if do I pitch him. This is much more complicated than some think. It’s not as black and white as it’s made out to be on this website.
Coaches have four main things to concern themselves with by coaching their son. 1) Don’t just coach your son – coach the other boys and work with your son at home. If coaches aren’t doing this, then they will have issues with parents all year. The best compliment I have received was from a mom of new player I just picked up and she asked if I have any kids. I said, “yes my son plays on the team”. She said, "I never knew that" and her son had played against us 20 times over the past 3 years. This is one of my goals - coach all the kids the same. 2) When do I pitch him (this is the toughest)? It’s actually much easier if you have a bunch of elite pitchers and your son isn’t one of the top pitchers. This way you don’t have to throw him unless the game is out of reach. If your son is a top 3 or 4 pitcher on your team, you can’t win because if he loses a game, it had to be because your son was on the hill and parent X claims their son would have won the big game. 3) Where do I play him? This question is based on opinion. Obviously, if you stick “Johnny” at SS he better be the best or you will take heat. IMO the 3 easiest positions to play are corner OF and 2nd base. I want my best players touching the ball as often as possible and that happens to be P, C and 1st. After that, SS and 3rd need to field well but also have a very strong arm so they are tough positions to play. CF is next because you better go get it as the fences will be 250 in many tourney’s this year. All that said, I agree with the Grays, corner OF and 2nd are very important as well so there are no longer positions to hide kids. OF errors will usually take a team right out of a game and the better teams will hit it to the OF. This isn’t rec ball where all you needed was a good SS and you were going to win. Most of these dads coached little “Johnny” in rec. ball at 6’s or 7’s or 8’s and so their thinking is skewed because the last time they coached, the OF was irrelevant. If you stick their son in the OF it must be because they stink. That isn’t the case. It’s about to change this year as the best athletes will play OF from this point moving forward. Per my last conversation with coach Baldwin, the fastest way right now to the big leagues is OF and P. There is no bad position and you certainly can’t hide kids which is why you need 11 very good players to compete. 4) Where do I bat him? This is easier. A good or bad swing is easy to see so it’s less subjective. Anyone can claim their son is a great IF as long as the coach hits his kid slow rollers in practice and the other kids get shots hit at them. Hitting is more closely watched and everyone can usually tell who the better hitters are. How far the ball travels and how hard they hit it are not subjective and the stats don’t lie. If coaches won’t show you the stats, then there might be a reason. Also, the head coach shouldn’t be the stat keeper or person that tally’s them. The hard part comes if/when a coach’s kid is struggling but they usually hit well. If you move your son down in the order, you are sending a message to not just a Player on your team but he also happens to be you son that you have lost faith and confidence in him. This is when you really wish you weren’t coaching your son.
Morris is correct that it’s very difficult because many coaches put more pressure on their kids than the other boys. I have actually seen this far more often than I have seen daddy ball. Coaches want their son to justify his position, or the fact that he’s pitching in the big game or where he bats. I have to remind my assistant and myself every couple of weeks to lay off our own kids as it’s just a game at this age. I have seen coaches recruit so hard because they want to win so badly, that they end up playing against competition that is very challenging for their son to have success. There is a fine line between what is best for the coach’s kid and the competitiveness in coaches to want to win at the expense of their own child. Before I put together my team, I have to evaluate what level my son can play at and have success. I asked my assistants for their honest opinions on my son before I make decisions on the next year. If I build a team that is going to play in a lot of 12’s next year, then I have to be pretty sure that my son is going to do well in 12’s, otherwise I need to get kids that just want to play 11’s. Some coaches don’t even play their kid or play them in positions they will never play later in life – all to win a 10U baseball tournament that nobody will remember in two years. All of these kids have to go out and make teams in the next two years so if coaches aren’t doing what is best for their child (playing them against like competition for them to have success, playing them where they project to play and letting them bat somewhere in the lineup), they will ultimately regret these decisions for a very long time. Some coaches do play daddy ball, but it’s tough because most are out their volunteering their time and without them we don’t have teams. For as many coaches that I’ve seen play Daddy Ball, I’ve seen or heard from more parents who have completely unrealistic views of their own child’s baseball skills so this conversation goes both ways, which is why it’s always discussed on this board every year.
As for ECB’s team next year…..I think the Outlaws, Stars, Rays, Yankees, Titans and Raptors will all play some majors next year. The Titans are a very well coached group. All these teams have improved tremendously this off-season. The Stars are the most improved IMO. No pressure Steve! I know most of these kids that are moving around because many of them have played for me in the past. The Stars didn’t make the splashiest headlines with their pick-ups but really improved. They were hyped way too much last year because people overestimated the kids they added. This year they have added some very good players that people don’t know a lot about. It’s not about the success kids have had in the past, it’s more about how do they project for the next year. Some will adjust as the game changes. We played a lot of 11’s last year and it’s a different game.
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SRD
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 16:21:43
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| Very well stated ecball!! |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 16:58:23
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| The kid the Stars picked up from Shiloh is a great ball player...He was the biggest reason we took our boys to play for Shiloh this summer, and he didn't disappoint. I can't believe that kind of talent can't be held on to in Gwinnett county?? As I have said for a long long time as long as Gwinnett has the talent we can put out some decent teams, but until a team that has a commitment to winning and puts some real talent on a team we will never know. |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 17:07:16
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ecball, very well stated. You make some great points and much of what you said makes a lot of sense, the biggest thing in this equation is people and their perception of what is daddy ball or what isn't. Many people need to just cut the coach some slack, that's one of the most difficult jobs out there and they do it for free.
In regards to the ECB teams for next year, you really hit the nail on the head. Many of these teams have really added some players and all should be much improved over last year. I had heard that as many as 3 additional teams were jumping into the majors next spring which would be great. Many say the Stars and Rays have top 5 talent and the Braves are #1 so it looks like EC will be strong at 11U. |
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chip
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 19:48:30
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| I agree. It is very easy to be too critical of the coaches kids. In reality,most of the time they are the better kids on the team. Also,the coaches are generally much harder on their own kids. It seem like the popular catch phrase this year is "daddy ball". It seems that it is just an easy way for the parents of kids who don't get to play as much or get to play the position they want to blame the coach.Parents often have a hard time being objective when where their own kid is concerned. The reality is that there are too many travel ball teams which has created a lot of the problems we are seeing. With so many teams and even more new teams any parent who isn't 100% happy just leaves ,bad mouths the coach and goes to another team. It is a part of travel ball today. |
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Steel-Will
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2010 : 21:05:34
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I certainly understand what you are saying Alter-Ego and the rest of the coaches, and it is laudable when in fact coaches with son's on the team can execute their coaching responsibilities unbiasedly and based on each players’ demonstrated abilities.
However, in my experience, unbiasedness just doesn't happen that often. And more painstakingly, some of the worse cases of “daddy-ball” I experienced were when the coach was adamant about his utter disdain for "daddy-ball".
Additionally, more often than not, the crime of “daddy-ball” was committed against new parents and players who were unsuspecting, team oriented parents or those who didn’t really know the ropes. These parents didn’t fully grasp that, all things being equal, the more athletic player should hold down the more demanding positions; that the name of the game is repetitions and the more reps a players get, the better they can become.
How does a coach justify in his mind putting the fastest, strongest-armed, highest average hitting kid on first base the WHOLE season while his son plays SS? DADDY-BALL! How does the kid with the highest average hit last in the line-up? Try having 6 coaches, all having sons on the team and you’ll experience the epitome of daddy-ball.
Any experience coach or parent knows it about getting quality reps, and when a coach knowingly and continually deprives a kid of playing time (reps) he is unquestionably doing a disservice to the more skilled / more deserving player and to the team and often to his own son who may not learn the value of working hard to improve and being able to earn a position on ANY team for which he tries out.
It is human nature for dad’s to look out for the best interest of their sons. And I’ve seen the most egregious cases of daddy ball, even GRAND-DADDY ball where unless the daddies and granddaddy were coaching the team, those sons and grandsons just would not be playing. I watched them continually make errors, constantly striking out, and repeatedly cost the team games by failing to make routine plays.
How do you pick a team and avoid the divisiveness and destruction of daddy-ball? Try to find a team with a coach who does not have a child on the team. The Parents I know in those environments are adamant about never going back to a team with dads coaching their sons. If you do pick a team with daddy coaches, be sure to get your sons roll clarified up front as well as the amount of playing time reasonable with your son’s skill level. Prepare your son in advance of what could possibly happen and make sure he knows that the best way to not have daddy-ball affect his position or playing time is to be very good and that takes work.
But when it comes to coaches with sons on he team, EXPECT daddy-ball to rear it’s ugly head and be prepared to deal with it in a respectful, firm, and factual manner.
If daddy-ball does not manifest itself; great, but if it does, you and your family can be prepared. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 01:42:06
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| 6 coaches???? High School teams don't have that many with twice the roster size...IMO too many daddy's played some rec-ball or HS and now all of a sudden they are gonna "develop talent"....LOL that's exactly why we decided to stay on this side of town, Three pro coaches not even related to any kids during the week and on game-day....There can really be ZERO complaining about daddy ball. |
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gafan
66 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 09:29:01
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| Wow... reading these posts makes me sooooo happy to be on the team we are on.... why do I feel like the exception to the rule? |
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ecball
72 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 09:57:31
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Agree - The kids don't need 5 assistants at games anymore. You needed that many when they were 8U just to make sure they batted in the right order and weren't playing in the dirt but it's changed now.
Plus, it also depends on how much influence the assistants have on batting order and line-up. On our team, no assistants have any say in batting order, pitching or positions so the other parents don't have to worry about that. I don't favor assistants kids as we are trying to win the tournament so we simple do what gives us the best chance.
As for ECB teams being stronger - yes they are all much better as the park added 7 or 8 new "major" players, plus the top Tigers players went to the Raptors, Stars and Outlaws. The Rays have improved as well. I'm not sure about top 5 for all these teams because other teams haven't finished with their rosters. Stealth will be very strong, the Yard Dogs will bring a top 5 team, Sig. Park will be top 5 and Gamers Red (heard they added) will be top 5. My guess is the ECB strength at this age will be around 6-10, not saying every spot but many of these teams will be in the top 10 and will compete for tournament championsihps. Plus, who knows because this is all just based on talent and basing predictions on just talent will get you in trouble. That's my two cents based on the players that I know of. |
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4 seam
46 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 11:31:58
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I think top dogs will be out of EC..from the pickup the Braves made they will not lose many games at least by Ga teams!
Yard dogs you never know....depends on who stays together.
Stealth will be good.
Gamers Red...Not enough talent in McDonough to compete with the big boys!
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Edited by - 4 seam on 08/12/2010 15:05:53 |
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tae281
447 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 12:42:05
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I think the real benefactor in all of this is the "major" division, last year there were only a handful of teams and many of you guys had to travel far and wide just to find a tournament. This year, there will be at least a dozen major teams and hopefully the number is closer to 15. The top 4-5 will still be head and shoulders above the rest but teams 5-12 should all be comparable.
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 15:46:22
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| I agree.....I wish there would be more major coaches who coach their clubs like ECBall, taking responsiblity for all the game day decisions takes away much of the drama. Also trying to win the tournaments only attracts better talent year to year, not saying that approach is for everyone but that is what the top ranked 12U teams do. I hope we can find a couple more kids to get our team to a level that we can play with the Braves. And win of course! |
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 16:22:04
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The Braves have to be #1 until someone beats them out of that spot and I have to go with the Bomberz as the #2.
Yard Dog lost a couple of "big dogs" so unless they've picked up some impact players they will fall a couple of spots to maybe #4.
Don't sleep on the Gamers, they came out and played majors all year to make themselves better. If they can add a couple then they can challenge for a top 5 spot. Either way, with the addition of more major teams this will be great for this age group. |
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 20:50:06
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| Coaches without kids on a team can be good since they have no interest in playing favorites with any player but at the same time what is it that is binding them to the kids? It's very easy for these no dad coaches to just walk away since they have very little vested in the team. |
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