| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| bturner |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 08:57:50
There was a thread a while back by BMoser on this.I could"nt find it so here it goes again.
I read an article in the Sunday AJC about Jason Heyward. The braves scout (Clark) at the time said that he put Heyward on his radar at the ripe old age of 11. He said he saw him play at East Cobb and they started following him.
While I understand that he is only 1 kid and is the exception not the rule. It does matter the level they are playing now. Not that they are going to be Heyward or the next superstar, only that they are exposed to a higher level.
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| justin case |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 08:07:30
thank you beanball and kehndog |
| kehndog |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 22:23:26
Agreed beanball. Anyone who needs 3-1/2 more pages of opinions on this topic can go to the 15-18 General Discussion forum. |
| beanball |
Posted - 05/08/2010 : 22:32:20
Let's get this over with. 11U doesn't matter. |
| jongamefan |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 20:56:15
agree with U14 elite rosters being the real deal earlier years are too crazy
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| bballman |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 11:07:13
I would be more inclined to say that it starts at 15u, unless your kid gets on a school feeder program at 14. Many teams continue until their kid gets into HS. Not many dads coach once their kid gets to HS, up till then, they stick with it.
However, I will say that by 14u, most kids have settled into their level of play. In other words, you will probably not have a really bad coaches kid playing a significant role on a really good 14u travel team. I would think a coach would have filled his roster with other kids who are at or near the same talent level as his own kid. If the coaches kid is really bad, the good kids will have left the team and word would have gotten out as to what is going on and the team would not attract any top level performers. |
| G-Man |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 09:51:15
I agree with you on this. Once they hit 14u it tends to weed a lot of the dads out from a coaching aspect. At this age its difficult for a dad to coach and influence a lineup. Coaches at this age group again tend to have either played college ball or have coached beyond the travel ball levels in the past.
quote:
Originally posted by coachdan06
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
12ucoach:
I was using the usssa roster history to look up high school juniors and seniors, not MLB players. I figured if a star high school player is now 16 or 17, he'd likely show up in 12u,13u,14u. I know my sons history goes back 4 years to when he was 7 and began in travel ball. I didnt see it as that much of a leap to think I'd find High School players' history's too.
Moser : My many weary years of coaching now watching say that you start paying attention to Elite rosters at 14 years old.
Before then its a crapshoot , lot of Dad coaches are in the mix influencing matters, and so on.
JMHO
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| coachdan06 |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 09:11:54
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
12ucoach:
I was using the usssa roster history to look up high school juniors and seniors, not MLB players. I figured if a star high school player is now 16 or 17, he'd likely show up in 12u,13u,14u. I know my sons history goes back 4 years to when he was 7 and began in travel ball. I didnt see it as that much of a leap to think I'd find High School players' history's too.
Moser : My many weary years of coaching now watching say that you start paying attention to Elite rosters at 14 years old.
Before then its a crapshoot , lot of Dad coaches are in the mix influencing matters, and so on.
JMHO |
| Shut Out |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 08:30:30
Jason was one of those kids with rare one in a life time talent and I'm just glad the coaches along the way whether it be ECB or his high school teams just didn't screw up what a great talent he already was when they got him:) |
| bmoser |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 17:10:15
12ucoach:
I was using the usssa roster history to look up high school juniors and seniors, not MLB players. I figured if a star high school player is now 16 or 17, he'd likely show up in 12u,13u,14u. I know my sons history goes back 4 years to when he was 7 and began in travel ball. I didnt see it as that much of a leap to think I'd find High School players' history's too. |
| 12uCoach |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 14:54:07
Stop using the USSSA site as a basis for the early 2000's. Entering data was not required for the years Heyward was in his early teens. My 13U team is in for 2002 (also Jason's 13U year), and of those players, including Michael Palazzone, now at UGA, only one is listed on another USSSA team in the future.
The first time he shows up in PerfectGame is as a 14U for the 2004 Underclass National Showcase. The summer of 2004 he played as a 15U for the East Cobb Aztecs, and that roster is not in the USSSA system because we played 1 tournament and I didn't put it in the system. The roster is in the WWBA DB for 2004 tournaments as the East Cobb Aztecs, and Jason is on that roster.
Hope this helps on him, and will put to rest the roster lookups some of you are doing on players who were teenagers in the early 2000's. |
| Rocky |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 14:17:12
What I am saying is just because ECB picks you up for a team at 17 or 18 doesnt mean his dad was driving him to ECB at since he was 10 years old and that is what made him a great player. If he had been playing a lot of travel baseball I think we would see his name on USSSA website similar to Bryce Harper. |
| putmeincoachgeorge |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 13:13:35
http://prospectsplus.baseballamerica.com/content/051012ages.html
If this really was written in 2005,someone has a good eye for future talent.
Delino DeShields Jr.,Chase Butler,Callan Dawson,Miles Head,A.J.Cole,Bryce Harper etc. |
| Shut Out |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 10:46:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I would like to know how much Jason Heyward really played at East Cobb. I can't even find him on USSSA website. I found a ton of teams for Bryce Harper. Can anyone confirm any East Cobb teams he played on and at what age? I also believe a scout probably saw him hit one time or a ball came over to another field he might have been standing at and therefore said he remembered seeing him play as an 11 year old. I don't know if being a stud young means anything or not I am sure it goes both ways but Bryce Harper was a stud at 12 and he is a pretty good now.
Taken from the Perfect Game website data:
Jason Heyward 2007
OF 1B L/L 6-4 220
HS: Henry County
Hometown: McDonough, GA
Summer Team: East Cobb Astros
Fall Team: East Cobb Astros
College Commitment: UCLA |
| TAZ980002 |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 10:34:00
quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I would like to know how much Jason Heyward really played at East Cobb. I can't even find him on USSSA website. I found a ton of teams for Bryce Harper. Can anyone confirm any East Cobb teams he played on and at what age? I also believe a scout probably saw him hit one time or a ball came over to another field he might have been standing at and therefore said he remembered seeing him play as an 11 year old. I don't know if being a stud young means anything or not I am sure it goes both ways but Bryce Harper was a stud at 12 and he is a pretty good now.
I wondered about this too. I met Jeff Francoeur one day last year and asked him about his experience at East Cobb and he told me he had little or no playing experience at East Cobb. |
| Rocky |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 10:00:46
I would like to know how much Jason Heyward really played at East Cobb. I can't even find him on USSSA website. I found a ton of teams for Bryce Harper. Can anyone confirm any East Cobb teams he played on and at what age? I also believe a scout probably saw him hit one time or a ball came over to another field he might have been standing at and therefore said he remembered seeing him play as an 11 year old. I don't know if being a stud young means anything or not I am sure it goes both ways but Bryce Harper was a stud at 12 and he is a pretty good now.
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| ronicard |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:53:15
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
bturner: my point with that statement was any person who sees projectability at the age of 11 needs to have their head examined. Again I doubt this scout did and his statements about watching him since Heyward was 11 was nothing more than some hype to spice up the news article. I also believe Ed watched Heyward since he lives in that area and has been a fixture around ECB for a lot of years. But I am also positive he was watching Heyward as a fan of ECB baseball and not as a scout evaluating Heywards future projectability at the MLB level.
I'm not so sure. In the book "Scouts Honor: The Braves Way of Building An Organization", they reference the fact that a scout first saw Kyle Davies throw a no-hitter at age 12 at East Cobb and called Paul Snyder to tell him that he was looking at a player they were going to draft in 6 years. And they mention that they continued to watch and monitor Davies pitch over the next 6 years.
While I will agree with you that a lot can change, kids are hitting puberty earlier and earlier now. And they are physically maturing at a much more rapid pace. We lamented several times this past weekend that 12 year olds today are much bigger than they were when I came along (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth). It's not surprising at all to me that a scout and/or college coach is looking at a physically dominant player at age 11 or 12 and putting him on a "watch list" for someone who has the potential to be a player for him 5 or 6 years down the road.
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| ChinMusic |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:06:22
Why rehash this again?? Someone has already pointed out where another (4 page) thread exists on this same topic. Of course 11u matters to many for various reasons. |
| bballman |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:04:13
papa, I don't think anyone is saying that just because you can't tell who will wind up being studs when they are 11 doesn't mean they should not play. That's why everyone is saying that the the most important thing is for the kids to have fun and learn the fundamentals of the game. The topic isn't "should kids play at 11 if they are not a stud". The basic topic is "can you tell if an 11 year old will be a stud when they get to HS". Baseball is a great game and I totally agree with your take on it. I really just think kids need to be having fun at 11 years old.
My son was still playing rec ball at 11. He was good, but small. He is still pretty small (5'9", 175 lbs.). He is a sophomore in HS this year. He has been a starting varsity pitcher for 2 years and made 2nd team all region the last two years. And this is in region 6 AAAAA. He didn't play travel till he was 12, so I can honestly say it didn't matter what he did when he was 11. He was playing rec ball, having fun, playing with his friends, playing catch and hitting with his dad and loving baseball. Did we work on his game? Yep. Did he learn the fundamentals? Yep. Was he playing 70-80 games a year against the best competition in the state or region or country at 11? No. And he still turned out pretty good. I can probably name you 25 kids who were playing travel ball at an earlier age than him, just in the Roswell area, who are no longer playing baseball at all. Didn't seem to help them, although I'm sure they enjoyed the heck out of their experience and their dads can look back and say it was probably the best times of their sons growing up. Enjoy the time with your son's/grandson's. That's what it's all about. Not piling up trophy's - no one will care in the long run. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 08:33:02
Papa thinks that you should play the game for the game itself. There does not have to be a pot of gold at the end of the baseball rainbow and that is why I love the game so. The game was invented to pass time in a way that would challenge the body and the mind not so that your child could sign a major league contract. The game was invented so the neighborhood boys could do something that they loved doing and have a ton of fun doing it. I don't know how a 11 year old looks at anything as they don't tend to say a lot but I do know that the time that I have spent with my boys in the yard and at the fields is time well spent and time that I wouldn't trade for that pot of gold. I could care less if they become a high school stud or professional ball player as I am proud of them the way they are and I will be proud of them for whatever they become. I can tell you that the time spent with them has been well worth the effort and I just hope that this time gives them the opportunity to advance if that is what they decide to do. I must just be a selfish old man because in my mind Papa gets a lot more out of this time spent with the boys than they do. Time has taken many things away from me but it will never be able to take the memories that I have made with my grandson's and all of their friends and this is reward enough so if my 11 and 13 year old don't become studs then Papa will just live with it. |
| TAZ980002 |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 08:28:06
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
the original threads context:
I was asking 15-18 year old players Dads/Coaches to look at who made the High School team/s that they currently follow, or are involved with, then look back through time to when those young men were 11U.
What % were playing Major level vs. lower level travel ball? What % played travel ball vs. Rec? What % didn't play much baseball at all in 11U? How strong is the correlation between stud at 11, and stud in High School?
If they said most of the 11U studs are not on the H.S. team today, then what happened to them?
The reason I asked this was I often read about a new High School stud in the local paper, then go to USSSA to see his playing history. I'm expecting to see extensive travel ball playing history, but often found little or none!
Bandit_Hawk's take is from the view point of the 11U player and his family, and I totally agree with his opinions on that. I was looking for historical context from the H.S. players point of view looking back in time through their playing career.
I just wanted to clarify for all forum readers what I was trying to learn from the older boys/Dads/Coaches. I wasn't making any kind of statement, I was attempting to learn from folks that have been down this road before. You see, I have only 1 son, and thus only 1 chance to get it right.
Bmoser, since my oldest is 11, I am not qualified to answer this topic as you originally posted it. Sorry if I have created any confusion. |
| G-Man |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 03:39:18
Here is my own personal experience. My older son who played for the Dodgers and Cardinals wasnt as good at 12 yrs old than my 11 yr old is presently. However A LOT changed from 12 to 17. The one trait I have seen of those who have made it to the next level other than physical tools is they all have a tremendous love for the game of baseball which forges that work ethic and heart need to play the game at higher levels.
I have to agree with you 1000%. However I am glad you posted this and I didnt have too LOL. As I also mentioned and bballman confirmed. Its impossible to predict an 11 yr olds future success playing baseball at the high school level and beyond no matter what their talent level is. As long as you are working on mechanics and creating a sound knowledge of the game nature will take its course.
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
bturner, not necessarily true. I have seen a TON of kids who were studs at 10, 11 even 12 who the game has passed by. Sure there are some studs still playing, but more of them are out, or not contributing than those who are still studs from then. Here's the thing. At the early ages, most of the studs are the early bloomers - the kids who grew earlier than the others. They were bigger, stronger and faster. Many of those kids stopped growing and everyone else caught up. I think you get my point.
We played at a tournament at Univ of South Carolina last summer. One of their coaches was talking to our coaches. He told them that he doesn't even look at 15 year old teams (that's what we were) because so much can change between 15 and 17 or 18. Big kids become average, smaller kids grow and there is no way to really tell. If a college coach/scout feels like he can't judge a 15 year old because of what may change in the next 2-3 years, how can you KNOW what an 11 year old will be like in 6-7 years? You really can't.
Just play the game, have fun, practice the fundamentals and hope your kid is good enough and still loves to play the game enough to play varsity ball one day. If he eventually dominates at the varsity level, you can start thinking about the next level.
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| coachdan06 |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 23:41:33
NO WAY any person can look at a 11 year old by and judge his future. In ANYTHING : sports academics , anything.
About the AJC article , if a scout is evaluating 11 year old boys he must have a lot of time on his hands.
1
Baballman had it right ,calling the 10 to 12 year old boys "studs" , thats a laugher 50% of them wont play competitivly in 2 years when the filed is full sized.
Sorry dads thats the way it is but does not mean he shouldnt still play a recreation program for enjoyment: I know a handful of former 12 year old "studs" who now play rec ball and have happily accepted it..
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| bballman |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 22:42:10
bturner, not necessarily true. I have seen a TON of kids who were studs at 10, 11 even 12 who the game has passed by. Sure there are some studs still playing, but more of them are out, or not contributing than those who are still studs from then. Here's the thing. At the early ages, most of the studs are the early bloomers - the kids who grew earlier than the others. They were bigger, stronger and faster. Many of those kids stopped growing and everyone else caught up. I think you get my point.
We played at a tournament at Univ of South Carolina last summer. One of their coaches was talking to our coaches. He told them that he doesn't even look at 15 year old teams (that's what we were) because so much can change between 15 and 17 or 18. Big kids become average, smaller kids grow and there is no way to really tell. If a college coach/scout feels like he can't judge a 15 year old because of what may change in the next 2-3 years, how can you KNOW what an 11 year old will be like in 6-7 years? You really can't.
Just play the game, have fun, practice the fundamentals and hope your kid is good enough and still loves to play the game enough to play varsity ball one day. If he eventually dominates at the varsity level, you can start thinking about the next level. |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 22:11:17
Moser,
I don't believe it's an apples to apples comparison. Travel ball has changed significantly in the past 5-7 years, which is when most of these high school players would have been 11. The landscape of travel ball has so many more teams with more competitive tournaments that I don't believe you can parallel what an 11u player is exposed to in today's environment vs. what an 11 year old had available to them 5-7 years ago.
quote:
The reason I asked this was I often read about a new High School stud in the local paper, then go to USSSA to see his playing history. I'm expecting to see extensive travel ball playing history, but often found little or none!
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| bballman |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 16:49:48
I agree with you DecaturDad. And I like your way of looking at this Bandit. 11u matters to the players that are playing the game. Needs to be fun and instructional. Doesn't need to be high pressure, national level type stuff. Doesn't matter if you win tournaments, other than it is more fun if you win. What really matters is if your kid is having fun and becoming a better, more fundamentally sound ball player. |
