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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| prestont |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 06:07:23
First... let me commend the sites, ump's, and tourney directors for a great weekend in the Super NIT! Mother Nature was sure good to us on Friday, Saturday (hope ya didn't forget suntan lotion!), and held out for most of Sunday despite the weather reports. Sure was a fun weekend, and got to see some very close games where the kids performed well, and that's what travel baseball is all about!
Too bad the weather didn't give ALL the teams a chance to win it on the field  . That's ultimately how we ALL want a Super NIT, or any other tourney, to be decided!
The the following age groups did not have a chance to determine who takes home the BIG hardware on the field of play;
6U CP
8U KP
10U AAA
11U AA
12U AA
13U AA
14U AA
14U AAA
Can we get Bubba and Matt to respond here on the criteria they used to determine the final standings?
& teams in the age groups that didn't get a chance to win it on the field due to rain.... chime in here with your thoughts on the final results in your age groups!
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| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bmoser |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 16:40:16
In Triple Crown, we went 0-2 in pool this past weekend, not because we didn't use strong pitching, but because we got the toughest pool draw, then got outplayed.
We won our first two bracket games in the Silver bracket, then our Championship game was rained out. The higher seed was awarded 1st, we got 2nd. The higher seed also went 1-1 in the pool, so we felt it was fair. Triple Crown doesn't rank the rest because they don't have a point system. If we were not given any credit for winning two bracket games, I would not have seen that as being fair.
I think teams will start placing more emphasis on USSSA pool play if rain is forecast for Sunday. I wonder if the USSSA Global organization uses the same rules?
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| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 13:26:38
I believe there are two overarching reasons for having it the way it is:
1) Coming out of pool play is the only "Consistent" way to ensure you are comparing teams at a common point in time. (All had the same number of games played to that point.)
2) It puts more emphasis on teams trying to actually win in their pool games instead of sandbagging and saving pitchers. It potentially makes the pool games as important as the elimination games. (How many times have you seen teams go 0-2 just to save pitching? They get paired up against the #1 seed, beat them in the first round of elim play, then take their spot.) |
| LeftyBat |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 12:06:43
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
Lefty,
There is no way for everyone to be happy. What if one team gets a bye the first round of elimination play, and the other did not. What if there are 3, 4 or 5 teams left.
While not popular, the only "fair" thing is to go back to the point where all teams' games were guaranteed equal, and that is the seeding coming out of pool play.
If you are reverting to the last round of bracket play completed, there will almost always be an even number of teams left. Since they all made it to the same round, one could argue that they all have an equal chance at winning at that point. Some might argue that first tie breaker would be their record. This might actually provide an advantage to a team that ended up in the play in game with an undeafed pool play record (three 2-0 teams in a pool for example...) They could be 5 or 6 and 0 record while a team that qualifed ahead of them might be 4 or 5 and 0. I could see that the best way would be, if one of the teams has played more games than the others remaining, throw out record and go to head to head, then to average runs allowed, either in bracket play or for the whole tourney... |
| LeftyBat |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 11:51:11
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
Lefty,
There is no way for everyone to be happy. What if one team gets a bye the first round of elimination play, and the other did not. What if there are 3, 4 or 5 teams left.
While not popular, the only "fair" thing is to go back to the point where all teams' games were guaranteed equal, and that is the seeding coming out of pool play.
Well for starters, I had this conversation with the national leadership at USSSA two years ago when I thought it was unfair for them to use total runs allowed as the tie breaker when determining which teams advance out of a sub state tourney because it put a team that had to play that extra game at an almost insurmountable disadvantage when trying to get the third spot out of a sub state for a state tourney bid, since they do not play the 3v4 game out. Actually showed them where it would be to an advantage for a team to throw a game, lose on purpose by 8-0 instead of try and win a game they were behind so as to limit runs allowed, (as opposed to trying to come back and still end up losing by something like 12-8...) I was told this is the price you pay for not throwing your best pitching in pool play and having to play that extra game (as if the extra game, the early game, and the extra innings on your pitching staff are not enough of a penalty for the team that has to play the play in game...) I argued it should be average runs allowed, not total runs allowed that would be the tie breaker. I actually argued stronger that both teams are there, your down to four teams and there is a field available, PLAY the 3-4 game for a bid to the tourney...
So USSSA thinks that your argument regarding the extra game is moot.
Secondly, I believe the tie breaker used at the Super NIT was AVERAGE runs allowed, so the extra game should not hurt a team. I think what you do in bracket play, against teams that have qualified by winning should carry more weight than what you do in pool play. |
| BravesFan |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 11:09:13
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
Lefty,
There is no way for everyone to be happy. What if one team gets a bye the first round of elimination play, and the other did not. What if there are 3, 4 or 5 teams left.
While not popular, the only "fair" thing is to go back to the point where all teams' games were guaranteed equal, and that is the seeding coming out of pool play.
Only problem is that they didn't seed everyone 1-24 coming out of pool. Everyone was slotted based on where they finished in pool so you kind of had an idea what games you might be playing next. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 09:58:39
Lefty,
There is no way for everyone to be happy. What if one team gets a bye the first round of elimination play, and the other did not. What if there are 3, 4 or 5 teams left.
While not popular, the only "fair" thing is to go back to the point where all teams' games were guaranteed equal, and that is the seeding coming out of pool play.
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| LeftyBat |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 23:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
If a tournament gets cancelled during elimination play, the final rankings are determined by looking at the teams still not eliminated and taking their pool standing coming out of pool play. It reverts back to a common point for all teams. It's not the most popular, but the fairest, unfortunately.
OK I get it now... Much better feeling than when I first read this and thought since they did not finish bracket play, they reverted all the way to pool play standings to award order of finish.
But still does not make sense. Two teams make it all the way to the finals, without a loss, but do not play the game. Team A gives up six runs in pool play, Team B gives up 7, both winning two games. Team B gives up 2, 3, and 0 in pre quarters, quarters and semis, Team A gives up 5, 9 and 12 runs on their way to the finals and you somehow decide that after giving up 21 more runs in three games of bracket play than team B did, Team A deserves the trophy? USSSA minds work in strange ways.... |
| LeftyBat |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 18:13:44
quote:
Originally posted by LeftyBat
quote:
Originally posted by prestont
First... let me commend the sites, ump's, and tourney directors for a great weekend in the Super NIT! Mother Nature was sure good to us on Friday, Saturday (hope ya didn't forget suntan lotion!), and held out for most of Sunday despite the weather reports. Sure was a fun weekend, and got to see some very close games where the kids performed well, and that's what travel baseball is all about!
Too bad the weather didn't give ALL the teams a chance to win it on the field . That's ultimately how we ALL want a Super NIT, or any other tourney, to be decided!
The the following age groups did not have a chance to determine who takes home the BIG hardware on the field of play;
6U CP
8U KP
10U AAA
11U AA
12U AA
13U AA
14U AA
14U AAA
Can we get Bubba and Matt to respond here on the criteria they used to determine the final standings?
& teams in the age groups that didn't get a chance to win it on the field due to rain.... chime in here with your thoughts on the final results in your age groups!
Anyone else think it is odd that somehow magically all the major teams in every classification completed their tourney? Perhaps thats what an extra 100.00 gets you...
We that is the dumbest thing I have heard of in a while. Logic would say that you would take the teams that had completed the last full round completed by all contestants (pre quarters, quarters, semis, etc...) and take the teams still standing, take won and loss record first, if tied, head to head, if did not play or tied, average runs allowed, if still tied, average run differential to determine the winner.
Using your logic, your saying that the team that loss in the quarters of the elim bracket of AA 12 PTB Panthers, would be awarded first place over the Gwinnet Titans, South Gwinnett Lightning who made the finals but did not play and the two teams that lost in the semis? Thats absurd and thats a problem if thats the case. And if by some stupid logic USSSA can justify it then it should be stated in 20 point type larger than any type anywhere when the brackets are posted for any tourney. |
| tae281 |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 12:46:25
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
If a tournament gets cancelled during elimination play, the final rankings are determined by looking at the teams still not eliminated and taking their pool standing coming out of pool play. It reverts back to a common point for all teams. It's not the most popular, but the fairest, unfortunately.
I guess this is why so many teams pitched their top guys in pool play, seems like a bad way to determine a winner to me. |
| BravesFan |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 12:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
If a tournament gets cancelled during elimination play, the final rankings are determined by looking at the teams still not eliminated and taking their pool standing coming out of pool play. It reverts back to a common point for all teams. It's not the most popular, but the fairest, unfortunately.
Ok, if this is true then how did they crown Macon the winner? In pool play, here are their runs scored and runs allowed:
Runs Allowed
EC Rays - 7
Macon Cardinals - 7
Runs Scored
EC Rays - 19
Macon - 16
I bet the tie breaker was the USSSA points each team had, Macon had more then the Rays. That's really a bad way to determine a winner, teams in the south part of town play many more USSSA tournament then the teams up north. |
| LeftyBat |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 12:02:23
quote:
Originally posted by prestont
First... let me commend the sites, ump's, and tourney directors for a great weekend in the Super NIT! Mother Nature was sure good to us on Friday, Saturday (hope ya didn't forget suntan lotion!), and held out for most of Sunday despite the weather reports. Sure was a fun weekend, and got to see some very close games where the kids performed well, and that's what travel baseball is all about!
Too bad the weather didn't give ALL the teams a chance to win it on the field . That's ultimately how we ALL want a Super NIT, or any other tourney, to be decided!
The the following age groups did not have a chance to determine who takes home the BIG hardware on the field of play;
6U CP
8U KP
10U AAA
11U AA
12U AA
13U AA
14U AA
14U AAA
Can we get Bubba and Matt to respond here on the criteria they used to determine the final standings?
& teams in the age groups that didn't get a chance to win it on the field due to rain.... chime in here with your thoughts on the final results in your age groups!
Anyone else think it is odd that somehow magically all the major teams in every classification completed their tourney? Perhaps thats what an extra 100.00 gets you...
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| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 10:51:30
If a tournament gets cancelled during elimination play, the final rankings are determined by looking at the teams still not eliminated and taking their pool standing coming out of pool play. It reverts back to a common point for all teams. It's not the most popular, but the fairest, unfortunately. |
| tae281 |
Posted - 03/22/2010 : 09:40:06
In the 10U AAA, the tie breaker should be runs allowed shouldn't it? If so, the Rays had 10 and Macon had 12, they didn't play each other and the winning percentage was the same so how did they decide this?
Also, when you go 3-1, how do you tied for 5th place with another team who went 2-3? |
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