| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 22:54:01
Papa and the Bandits have traveled extensively in the SouthEast and many places all across the nation and have never had too much to complain about when it comes to umpires but this weekend umpiring should and needs to be addressed.
Papa does not quite understand how things work with a USSSA sanctioned event such as this one and I am asking for someone to help me understand how a tournament likes this works. Who hires the umpires. Is it Bubba and USSSA or the directors of the event. And if it is the directors of the event and by the way no one at Central Park qualifies to be called director of anything. No person can serve two masters so I ask for someone to help me understand how one can be the tournament director and Coach a team in the tournament.
I can promise you that the Bandits have always loved this tournament and are so glad to be a part of the fundraising for the charity. But we did not come just for the charity and I don't think any of the other elite teams did either. I do think that all of the teams and coaches are glad that the Children's hospital and Miracle Field benefit from the proceeds of the tournament but The main reason that the Bandits and most of the major elite baseball teams come is to play in a quality, well run tournament and the one at Central Park does not qualify for this description.
I am not going to say too much in this regard but I am going to ask if others experienced umpire issues and if you had the same luck we did trying to get the tournament director to quit playing his game to come address issues on the other fields. Papa specifically asked the TD at Central Park to come to our field and evaluate the umpires performance and was called a name related to the donkey family. He was most likely right on the donkey family thing but that did little in the way of addressing a problem that teams were having with the umpiring. And if the TD only knew that Papa has been called much worse than the donkey thing and that I appreciate him taking it easy on me.
I heard at least the majority of the 12U major teams say that they would most likely not come back next year to the Slugfest due largely to the umpiring.
I only saw this issue with Central Park and 12U major division and did watch some other fields that the umpiring appeared to be going well so I am asking for feedback from everyone on all fields so that we might determine if this was an isolated incident or tournament wide.
I do want to clarify so that no one will think that I am whining that my Bandits could not have played any better than they did and that we could not be more proud of what they accomplished this weekend going 4-1 in a major 12U tournament filled with some of the best teams in Georgia and that the umpiring had no effect on the outcome of our game as we were pitching a postion player that has pitched very little at the end and were just proud that we made it as far as we did.
In my opinion and if you post and tell me that I am wrong then I will retract my statements and eat my hat at the very next tournament if you furnish the salt and give my fellow posters 30 minutes to draw a crowd before I eat my hat that this is what I saw.
1. I saw an entire group of umpires that had no clue where or what a strike zone was.
2. I saw 3 different incidents where the umpires did not know the count with a runner on 3rd base calling ball 4 when there was only 3 balls and as the runner was taking his base, the runner on 3rd took advantage and scored without a throw to home. The most primitive job of an umpire is to know the count at all times.
3. I don't know if I can describe this right or not but I watching the EC Colt 45's playing the Ga. RoadRunners with the RoadRunners having a runner on third. The umpire called strike 3 and the batter started walking to the dugout when in reality it was only strike 2. As the Coaches from the Roadrunners were yelling that it was only strike 2 the Roadrunner that was on third base tried to come home and the ball was thrown to the catcher and the runner was tagged out at home. After this it was just bedlam and the game got out of control and again due to the simple fact that the umpire lost count of the count. I am not sure if I described this correctly but I know many of you were standing there and might add to this story.
4. The most disturbing issue was in the quarterfinals when the umpire for the Bandits and EC Whitesox game decided that the coaches should be in the dugout. They had been outside the dugout for the entire tournament but all of a sudden the rules changed and the coaches were told that they could not coach outside the dugout. Same scenario on the field with the Jaquars and the Tournament Directors team. Jaquars coach protested and saying that he had the right to coach his kids and the Tournament Director that coached his opponent had him tossed.
Next game the Tournament Director's team played the Bandits and the Bandits Coaches were told that they coach outside the dugout again per instructions from the Director. No Director has this kind of power to decide a different set of rules for each different game. So here's the deal, Coaches outside the dugout to the quarterfinals, then inside the dugout for the quarterfinals and then back outside for the semifinals and then who the heck knows.
5. The umpires appear to know less about what a balk was than Papa does about tuning a jet airplane engine.
I don't want this to be controversial but one of the purposes of this forum is to address issues such as this. I saw some great baseball teams this weekend and I saw some problems that needs to be addressed. I do not think that Tournament Director should Coach a team or align the pools to better position his team and even if he didn't it still gives an appearance that he did.
I also would like to say that the East Cobb Colt 45's looked really good. Southern Jaquars looked really good and that I can promise that you have not heard the last of the Roadrunners as they also flashed signs of greatness. Its still real early and much noise will be made by these teams.
And last but not least congratulations to the East Cobb Astros for another great championship run. Papa has really got to know these kids and want them to know that I think that they are some of the best baseball players on the planet and that I appreciate them granting Papa his wish.
In my time I have watched one of the greatest tournaments in the Southeast wither and almost die due to issues very similiar to the ones described above. For the sake of Miracle Field and the Childrens Hospital I hope that the directors of this tournament open their eyes and make sure that the same thing that happened to the Border Wars does not happen to the Slugfest. Teams will not continue to play if we do not think we are getting fair and level play.
If I am wrong please let me know and I will gladly retract but if I am right let the directors know so that they can fix the problems and make this an even greater tournament. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 11:11:04
ATURNER: I do not believe the music was loud enough to bother anyone on the other field but it apparently was cause of some concern and the game on the other field was extremely tight and hard fought and this probably increased the anxiety level. I want everyone to know that if the Bandits music ever bothers you on another field that if you will let us know we will turn it down or turn if off until you finish playing.But again just ask politely as we would give you the same courtesy if we had a problem with something you were doing. |
| clg003 |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 10:43:24
OK fact is we played horrible and got our buts kicked. Definitely humble pie for us but we have had some great practices this week to work on the issues we had. So all in all it was a good thing for us. But I have to tell you that the umpires were absolutely horrible in this tournament. In our first game we had an umpire who called a balk on us in the first inning for the pitcher gripping a ball in his glove and barley moving his glove and then the same umpire didn’t call a balk on a pitcher who came to a set position twice. Then on the very next play that pitcher stepped toward first and didn’t throw the ball. We actually had to walk on the field and say by rule isn’t that a balk and then he said yeah and moved the kids up. In that same game a wild pitch got by the catcher and then after the catcher threw the ball back the umpire looked at the batter and said go to first. The kid was like "why"? and the ump said because it hit you. The ball wasn’t even close to the kid. In our next game, on a steal of second the kid slid into second and his knee popped up from the foot hitting the bag and then the fielder tagged his knee and he called him out. The funny thing was on that play the infielder yelled he was stealing and the pitcher never even brought his hands together, it’s like once he heard he was stealing he just threw the ball and the ump didn’t call it a balk and called a completely save runner out. We were all amazed. In the same game the third baseman was lining up in foul territory every single time a runner was on third base. We asked the ump to take a look and he said he wasn’t going to call that. We are 13U. Not 10 yr olds. After the inning we asked him, if instead of completely ignoring a rule could you at least educate the player or the team so that when they got a good ump they wouldn’t have to give up a run for something stupid like that. In our last game the strike zone was absolutely horrible. I mean how can the same ump call a pitch at your chin and at the middle of you shins a strike in the same at bat. We had a pitcher that was throwing a rainbow curve ball that was breaking so late that it was at our chins when it crossed the front of the plate and this dude called it a strike almost every single time. The umpire in the field was rolling his eyes after several of the home plate umpires calls. It got to the point where our parents were actually moaning and groaning about calls he was calling strikes against the other team. I watched another game where you couldn’t see the plate for about 3 innings because he didn’t have anything clean the plate with or he simply didn’t want to bend over, finally a catcher did it for the pitcher. In the same game the bases were the kind that moved when you slide into them and after a slide into second the base was off to the side and turned so that it was parallel with home plate and the ump just looked at it and let it go. The umpires certainly didn’t have anything to do with how we played but it was crazy how many poor examples of umpiring I saw at central field during that tournament. I have to say that I did watch a game at Shawnee Mountain and saw no bad calls and what appeared to be good umpiring. |
| ATURNER |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 10:07:10
We played at Midway in the 14AA division and had no umpire complaints. Of course there were 1-2 calls that could have gone either way, but our overall experience was good. The strike zone was consistent for both teams in all of our games. It seems there was inconsistency tourney-wide in the umpires attitude & experience level and appears the worst experiences were at Central Park. I've hosted many tournaments and, as a director, the umpires can make or break your event. Everyone wants quality umpires and it's up to the organization to weed out the ones that are not up to par. Hopefully the feedback on this forum will help in this process. I want to thank Bill Moats for stepping up and taking on the Slugfest!! Many of you may or may not know this but Bill stepped up to be overall TD for 3 years (now the next 2). As many have stated this is for a very good cause and you can play outstanding competition in your own classification locally. As with everything Bill does, he is a perfectionist. He will make sure these concerns are addressed and corrected for next year.
Baseball Papa, you played in one of our events last year and we loved the music too!! I don't recall it being too loud as to be a distraction to anyone else either. That would be my only concern as TD is if it was a distraction for a game on another field. |
| Up and In |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 17:00:05
MichaelP
I agree that some suggestions should be made to TD's when scheduling umpires. I have multiple children playing travel ball and do not have a preference. If the Umpires that were at Central Park this weekend (No matter what Organization)are the best around then we all are in trouble! It was that bad! |
| teddy41 |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 15:04:16
must have been at the 16-18 range
quote:
If your going to complain about that you have to say the same is true for east cobb. I saw a coach get tossed at wooden bat last year and tell the ump he would never get a job inside that fence again. I think a lot of directors enter their own tourneys as they may be fundraisers for that program etc. I know it was a usssa nit but also a charity event. Does not mean you should get bad umps. Have any winning teams complained yet?
|
| michaelp |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 12:18:03
Up and In
The best umps are calling 12yr old ball right now if not doing a high school game. Sure there is 13 & 14 year old baseball but at this time of year the best games are 11 & 12's. That would be great if a TD could tell a park which umpire association to use but that would be a shock to me.
|
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 12:01:41
Sometimes when things are gone about the right way then good things will eventually happen. Mr. Moats has called Papa back and we had a very long discussion concerning the issues that have been raised on this forum. Mr. Moats agreed that there were problems that he fully intended on addressing prior to next years Slugfest.
In years past without this forum all we would have had was the complaints and could bet that the complaints would not be addressed. Since I have been on this forum I have never seen one issue attract so many reads in such a short period of time. The complaints have been heard and the complaints in my opinion will be addressed and we can all expect a much better ran tournament with much more communication next year.
I thank Mr. Moats very much and feel sure that we can expect better next year and I look forward to coming back. Most of the time when something like this happens all any of us want is to know that it will not happen again and I don't think it will. |
| Flyer |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 11:46:49
We played 13u at Central Park and the umpiring was fine. They were Professional and I did not hear any complaints. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 11:38:30
baseballpapa,
The NUA Umpires do all the East Cobb Games including the Perfect Game Tournaments in the summer. I know there are always complaints about umpires but as a group, I believe these guys do a great job. (Not to say that I do not run across some that make calls that make me scratch my head.)
I am sure there are some cost differences that, on the surface, look questionable, but quality is very important in getting games called correctly. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 09:33:41
Someone had asked if the winners were complaining about the umpiring. Most of the complaints appear to be coming from the most successful teams. I have emailed b moats with some issues that I did not want to post and he has responded and has advised that he will call me sometime so we can discuss the problem and hopefully begin to arrive at some conclusion. I noticed some umpire associations that are posting and offering their help. Is anyone familiar with these umpire groups and does anyone have any advice on what group does the best job. Hiring a good umpiring association might solve 90% of the problems we saw. |
| Up and In |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 21:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ga12u
If you are talking about the play at the plate in the stixx-runners game, the home plate umpire said he never left his feet & the field ump said he did leave his feet, but you are allowed to do that !
I witnessed one umpire that was asked to leave later in the tournament call one strike on a kid that bounced before the plate. I saw another that went around a kids back called a strike from the same umpire. I know they make mistakes from time to time but this weekend at Central Park was ridiculous. The umpires in the 45's/ Astros semi final game called the Colt 45's off the base on two close calls that both looked as if the players were holding the bag. The base umpire was clearly out of position on the third base side of the diamond to make a call at first. He refused to ask for help from the home plate umpire at the Colt 45's managers request who clearly had a better angle. Both calls extended innings in a close game and runs were scored. The pitcher from the Astros had great stuff and pitched an outstanding game. It was a great game to see and the Astros earned a good and hard fought win. Umpires are part of the game and you have to live with the good, the bad and the ugly but at the end of the day it only affects the kids that have worked very hard to participate and compete at this Major Level. When most of these players know what a real strikezone is and balls bounce for strikes what is the message that is being sent to the kids? The umpires should ask themselves that that question before they carry an attitude and a power trip to show up coaches who only want clarification. This all happens in front of the kids. There is a reason these umpires are calling 12 year old games. Most of them don't have a clue! At least they didn't this weekend! |
| AA17Dad |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 20:15:35
12U Field #3 I honestly thought the umpire behind the plate was drunk. I'm not trying to be funny here. This guy was THE WORST I have ever seen. Not only was the strike zone the worst I have seen but he had no idea about the rules of play. He did not know that a bunt that lands in fair territory but spins back out without being touched is a foul ball!!! He called it fair....it was in our favor...the second time it happend and he called it fair the field ump had a chat with him and he changed his call to foul ball. We had a batter get hit by a pitch that then went to the back stop, the runner on third ran it out and scored...the plate ump had no idea that when a batter is hit by a pitch that the ball is dead and the runners can not advance...again the field ump steped in and corrected the call.
I know for a fact that the 12u TD/assistantTD/Coach??? witnessed this team of umps. I do not know what options he had but I do know his team never faced them. He did make them swap on Sunday and I'll be danged if that fella didn't blow a couple of calls in the field. " He's safe!..no I mean out ...I also know that he had them removed and saw to it that they were not going to be calling the championship game that his team was in. Too little too late .
They were THAT bad and should have been removed from the field and sent home. FRIDAY NIGHT !!!
P.S....Papa..I was diggin the tunes... It was really cool watching your boys dig in and play hard this weekend...I was sooooo glad we did not have to play you guys....... |
| Ga12u |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 19:44:30
If you are talking about the play at the plate in the stixx-runners game, the home plate umpire said he never left his feet & the field ump said he did leave his feet, but you are allowed to do that !
|
| ecbstix |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 19:34:42
I'll also add this...how many times, on any subject, have you ever seen the Roadrunners, Jags and Astros agree on anything!!? And that is just the teams I know are represented here that are 12u regulars( sorry Papa). Oh and by the way we actually liked your music... Great tunes! Kinda relaxing! |
| ecbstix |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 18:59:34
There was a call at Central where the runner left his feet also. Umpire said it was legal. I've read the posts that say "there are always complaints". Well I submit this. As a whole I think we as travel ball parents/coaches have seen our share of bad calls and bad umpires. This might be the 1st time I have seen this much ink on one group of umpires. And not only against our teams (which is usually the case) but in general! I witnessed alot of these calls at Central in the 12 major. I made the comment to PAPA that I hope they have not ruined this great tournament. No matter what anybody says, no coach should have the say in whether an opposing coach should be tossed! No coach in a tournament should have a say in who umpires what game! Period! Even if it is above board, you leave yourself open for doubt and undermine any good your team does on the field! The umps that tossed the Jags coach (against Sharon Springs)were the same ones who called the championship game against the Astros! The only run Sharon Springs scored was on back to back balk calls. Imagine that! The only calls they couldn't control were the ones flying over the fence! |
| whits23 |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 18:13:15
quote:
Originally posted by cam1
What about the fact that TD's in a tournament as big as the slugfest have teams that they coach in the tournament? I think this is a major issue and one that I would like someone from USSSA respond to.
If your going to complain about that you have to say the same is true for east cobb. I saw acoach get tossed at wooden bat last year and tell the ump he would never get a job inside that fence again. I think a lot of directors enter their own tourneys as they may be fundraisers for that program etc. I know it was a usssa nit but also a charity event. Does not mean you should get bad umps. Have any winning teams complained yet? |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 17:57:03
Papa just noticed that this post has not even been up for 24 hours and that almost 1000 reads are registered. That should add some credence that this needed to be addressed. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 17:50:59
I would like to address the atmosphere at the 12U major as this is the one that I witnessed first hand. I appreciate that Mr. moats operated his park in the manner that he did but I would like to ask if he was aware of the way the director at the 12U major park was acting. He did exactly the opposite of you Mr. Moats and if he was working for you should he not take the same position as you when a dispute arose.
I want to give specific examples and explain the way the director handled the issues. The first example occurred on Saturday night and everyone that has played the Bandits know that they play music between innings and also what the kids call their walk on music. I have been to many minor and major league games and this is done at the major league parks with music being played a lot. We do not and I mean never play the music to distract anyone nor have we ever played the music while the other team was pitching or hitting nor has it ever bothered anyone up to now and we have playing it for quite some time and this is the first time we have been told that it bothered someone. In our game one of the fans from another field came running over to our field and insisted with x rated language that we cut the ----------------- music off. If he had asked politely and given a reason for the request I can assure you that he would have had much greater success. He left and returned with the director that stated we was forbid to play the music. We asked the director what he would do about the foul language in front of the kids and he said nothing. We found out later the director was the Coach of the team with the foul mouth parent and that it was the director's game that was being played on the other field. So now we know why there was no action taken with the language.
I ask this forum if our music has ever bothered your team and if you recommend that we not do this then we will stop as a courtesy to you. But I must add that most of the time the other team has as much fun with the music as the Bandits as I have seen several of the opponents Mom's doing the boot scoot boogy to the music. It's a game, It's a game to enjoy, It's a game the kids should enjoy, It's about them having fun so lighten up and let them have as much fun as they can.
The next example was when the Jaguar Coach was attempting to tell the umpire that he had the right to coach his kids and that he was an adult and that he had never been placed in the dugout before. I was told the director told the umpire to eject the Coach which was within his rights as the director but then again he was not just the director but the coach of the team the Jaquars was playing and that just doesn't sound fair. The Jaguars are a great team and they will most likely agree with me that neither the umpires or the director cost them the game as they did not pay their game and when you don't play your game you will get beat most of the time but the appearance of the director calling the shots from inside the opposing teams dugout is wrong through whatever eyes you are looking.
Let's keep the post's civil enough that we have the opportunity to work with Mr. moats and solve the issues as this tournament is way bigger than our petty differences and helps many children that wish they had the same opportunities or physical abilities to play this game but are not able. First and Foremost this is a charity event and if the umpire and directors issues are solved then I can't wait to next year to play in the Slugfest. |
| bbfan31 |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 17:46:26
We played at Bennett park, and i thought the umpires there did a great job. There's always that pitch everyone one goes "oooooooooh" about, but that's baseball, the game of inches! The umpires for all of our games did say the count before almost every pitch. I think one big problem I've seen at different tournaments, not the slugfest at Bennett, is the score boards not working, or just the balls/strikes on the scoreboard not working. That wasn't a problem this weekend though, so all in all, it was good umpires, nice field, scoreboards worked, i give it an A. Every close play or close pitch someone will be on the losing end of the call and think it was a bad call. Again a game of inches and the umpire has milliseconds to see and make the call. As far as calling out balls/strikes, as a coach and a batter, they should be paying attention or ask the count before getting into the batters box, especially at the older age groups. |
| oldschooldad |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 17:33:40
quote:
Originally posted by SSBuckeye
10u at Coal Mountain seemed fine by me.
10 u AAA had a very negative experience with the umpiring at the Coal Mtn Park. One coach was tossed over the repeated issues during his game. the coah is question is extremely even tempered and has an extensive coaching and instructional background. I know he spoke the TD on site and the ump was moved to the AA brackets. I heard complaints from nearly ever team during their games.
IMHO, the balls and strikes things is normally over blown. most ump get complaints from both sides during a game but I hope most strive for some amount of consistency. I tend to view it as part of the game.
Many of the disputed calls I witnessed where not just balls and strikes however. they were possible game changing ones. clearly foul balls called fair, infielders mysteriously been off the bag, baserunners have no limit on the base paths, no balks beginning called.
I agree with baseballpapa that this type of overall trouble needs to be addressed. i tend to beleive where there is a lot of smoke the normally is a fire and beleive that perception is reality. if so many peolpe have an issue, they should seriously look at the problem. Maybe the best way to vooice our collectively opinion is with our wallets and really consider playing in next years tourney; even if the proceeds are for a great cause. solve the problem and we'll came back. |
| Thunder |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 17:11:42
This year, we used East Metro Umpire Association. These guys call games at several parks in Forsyth County and have shown to do a good job.
This was a different group than years past. Not that i guess it matters, but we got several complaints about umpires from that organization also. I can't say that I've ever played a tournament where someone isn't complaining about umpires.
|
| bmoser |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 17:00:55
Not too bad at Sharon Springs Park in 11u. When time on the game clock expires, the strike zone gets huge to bring the game to a faster conclusion and keep games on schedule. So long as umps are not treating teams differently, I can live with all the rest. One ump of ours this weekend at Slugfest made a mistake in rule interpretation, and luckily it didn't change the outcome of the game. He later came over and admitted his mistake and apologized. All our families thought that showed a lot of class. Now, had we lost due to that call...
I called a scrimmage game once, and its tougher doing it than it looked sitting outside the fence. After that experience, it totally changed my opinion about umpires. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 16:38:40
Unfortunately I think a lot of the same umpires that are used in the Slugfest are used in the Atlanta Super NIT. (except for the 14U division which is held at EC at the end of May.)
I don't believe either tournament uses NUA umpires, but I stand to be corrected if so. Maybe it is a cost issue. |
| dgersh22 |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 16:32:10
We played in the 12u AA bracket at Sawnee Mountain, before are first game started the home plate umpire said he hopes this game gets over with quick because he needs a break, twice in the same game we had the opposing teams shortstop obsruct our runner trying to steal third, no call. In the next game we had a play at the plate where the runner jumped over our catcher and tried to score, the umpire did not know the proper ruling and had to confer with the base umpire, there was no ejection. The strike zone seemed to change based on the score of the game or how much time was left in the game. We love this tournament because it is great competition close to home, lets just do something about the umpiring. I also couldn't tell you who the TD was for our division, I never seen him. |
| 10 BB |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:41:52
With all the talk about South Ga. getting bad calls while in North Ga. and vice a versa and with the Super NIT being a USSSA tourny just like the Slugfest I just hope they don't use the same umpires. If they do a team from Florida want have much of a chance in Ga.
To be honest with you guys we have never had an issue with the umpires while we have played in Ga. |
