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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PS Iron Pigs |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 13:15:42
We attended the USSSA meeting yesterday and the topic of players "team hopping" came up. Players playing for different teams in the same age group throughout the travel ball season. Does this happen often? The issue is that there is a possiblity of a player playing with a given team and that team quailifing and having their roster frozen, which would make this player ineligible for your team from that point forward? Why would any manager allow players to do this risking your own teams possiblity of playing deep into the post season? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bmoser |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 07:53:01
Can some one fill us in on Triple Crown's rules?
quote:
Originally posted by zwndad
We've been talking mostly about USSSA rules, but do the other governing organizations (USTBA, BPA, Triple Crown, Grand Slam, Nations, etc.) have similar roster rules? BTW, I have heard of kids being on one team's USSSA roster and being on another team's roster for Triple Crown and Grand Slam. Seems confusing to me, but then, I just want to have my kid in a good situation with a good coach and good families. We've found that, so I'm not too worried ... just curious.
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| gausssa |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 01:16:24
Bandit13
245 Posts
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 19:36:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if you qualify for a berth and refuse it? Is your roster frozen then ??
Yes. If you qualify your roster will freeze regardless if you take the berth or not. The notification on your teams page in the "finishing order" box has always had an astrix in it and is highlited yellow if a team is "qualified. That has been that way for the last 4 years i know. The other notification on the front page is new this year. |
| JCB |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 22:46:24
how are rosters set if you qualify for the elite ws like the astros have, i.e., by winning the previous year's national title? excuse my redundancy if this string has already answered this point. |
| TAZ980002 |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 19:36:22
What happens if you qualify for a berth and refuse it? Is your roster frozen then ?? |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 17:34:12
It does not matter if you want it or not. Once you qualify, whether you reject the berth or not, your roster is still locked.
I have seen teams get hung up with this on qualifying for the Elite WS. Particularly teams out west where the Super NIT's are held in the Fall. Some play in it during the fall because it is the best available tournament but don't have their normal team. Oops, they up and qualify and now can only add 3 players to their roster for next summer. |
| zwndad |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 16:28:15
We've been talking mostly about USSSA rules, but do the other governing organizations (USTBA, BPA, Triple Crown, Grand Slam, Nations, etc.) have similar roster rules? BTW, I have heard of kids being on one team's USSSA roster and being on another team's roster for Triple Crown and Grand Slam. Seems confusing to me, but then, I just want to have my kid in a good situation with a good coach and good families. We've found that, so I'm not too worried ... just curious. |
| itsaboutbb |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 15:31:10
quote:
bmoser, you are right. We did terrible in an early tournament one year. Got knocked out in the 1st round of playoffs and came in 5th or 6th. Top 3 got berths. Turns out, the top 3 teams already had berths. Apparently when that happens, they pass the berths down. We got a berth in that tournament and never knew it until we were making changes to our roster later in the year. We were a 14 year old team and had a few kids who were playing middle school ball and didn't want to commit until after their season was over. Once they came to us, we tried to add them and got locked out of the roster page. This was like 2 months later. We had no idea we had been given a berth. USSSA would not take the berths back and let us try to re-earn a spot. We did not play any more USSSA tournaments that year. Don't assume that if there are 3 berths being given that the top three teams automatically get them. You could back into a berth, have your roster frozen and not even know it happened.
In that case USSSA should notify the coach that he has backed into a berth and ask them if they want it or not. They should not assume you want it. It should be the coaches call not USSSA. |
| bballman |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 11:27:38
quote:
Originally posted by gausssa
No..What i'm saying is you "don't" have to have a good showing in a tournament in order for your team to get frozen. If you play a tournament with 6 teams and 4 of them have already "qualified" and are frozen. You could not when a game and come in last place and due to the top 4 already having a berth you a would now be qualified and your roster would freeze.
Yep, that is the case and pretty much what happened to us. We were not informed by anyone that this happened.
quote:
Originally posted by PS Iron Pigs
Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the TD to make you aware of your Berth after the tournament ends or is that the coaches responsiblity? Will that information appear on the website? We found out this weekend during the USSSA Meetings that an "*" will be placed next to your team name signifing which tournament you qualified in along with the words FROZEN ROSTER near the top of your team page.......but is that it?
I was not the head coach, so I don't know if there were any identifying markers on the team page stating that you qualified for a berth. I know I was sitting with the head coach at an out of town tournament and he was on his laptop attempting to update our roster and all of a sudden, he started throwing a fit. He started to make changes and all of a sudden, he got a message saying that he was locked out from making further roster changes. I would assume that there was nothing there telling him ahead of time that we had qualified or needed to be careful about making changes or we would be locked out. This was about 2 years ago, but I think I remember him saying that he changed a kids name (to make it compliant with birth certificate) and it counted as two roster moves. He added a kid and when he went to add another, his 3 roster moves after qualifying were used up. He made a bunch of calls to USSSA and they would do nothing help us get around this.
Like I said earlier, we weren't stacking our team or anything like that. We were a 14 yr. old team going into the season early, knowing that we would be making changes as the year went on due to middle school ball. We didn't want the berth and attempted to give it up and go back to the drawing board to earn another one. No such luck. We were done with USSSA for the year.
Not complaining, the rules are what they are. Everyone just needs to know what they are getting into before they do it. If your roster is not 100% set, don't enter into any USSSA tournaments. Like gausssa says, you could lose every game you play and still wind up with a berth and a frozen roster. Nothing you can do. Also, make sure before you leave a USSSA tournament, you find out whether or not you got a berth. Either by earning it, or by default.
My personal feeling is that you really should earn it. It is really not right to loose every game in a tournament and still get a berth to a big time national tournament. That's like failing math, but the teacher gives you an "A" anyway because the other kids already got an "A".
Just be careful and know what you are getting into. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:54:40
bballman:
Thank you very very much for explaining what happened to your team, and I really hope everyone who visits this great site will take the time to read your post.
My point is that it's much easier to "qualify" (and become frozen) than coaches and parents generally know. USSSA wants everybody to qualify for their World Series because they are huge money makers and the more teams, the more money.
There is a large knowledge gap in this area. Also, in the dangers of not entering your player names into usssa's on-line roster system precisely as required by usssa rules.
11U AAA coaches, 9 of 34 teams appear to me to have potentially illegal players on their 2010 rosters at this moment! Names do appear to me to have been entered correctly. Unless a boys legal given name that appears on his birth certificate is: JT, PJ, Ben,Sam,Will,Josh,Luke,Tim,Wes,Trent,Brad, or Einstein Albert (instead of Albert Einstein), you have a problem. |
| gausssa |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:49:22
No..What i'm saying is you "don't" have to have a good showing in a tournament in order for your team to get frozen. If you play a tournament with 6 teams and 4 of them have already "qualified" and are frozen. You could not when a game and come in last place and due to the top 4 already having a berth you a would now be qualified and your roster would freeze. |
| PS Iron Pigs |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:49:21
Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the TD to make you aware of your Berth after the tournament ends or is that the coaches responsiblity? Will that information appear on the website? We found out this weekend during the USSSA Meetings that an "*" will be placed next to your team name signifing which tournament you qualified in along with the words FROZEN ROSTER near the top of your team page.......but is that it? |
| Shut Out |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 09:58:59
quote:
Originally posted by gausssa
It is very possible for a team to get frozen on April first that did not win or come in 2nd in a qualifier. We give a berth to 25% of the total field and always round up. Example: a 10 team event would get 3 berths and a 20 team tournament would get 5 berths.
So are you saying your team only gets "frozen" if you have a good showing in a tournament? |
| bballman |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 08:15:33
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
You don't have to win a qualifier to become frozen, the way I understand it. Multiple births can be awarded at any given event. Can anyone else out there confirm, or set me straight?
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
bmoser,
April 1st, does not lock your roster, it is just the date that if you win a qualifer tournament other than an Elite qualifier, your roster is frozen. Before that date, even though you qualify, your roster is not locked. For Super NIT's, your roster is locked at that time even if it is before Apr 1st.
I also don't agree that the most occurrences are disgruntled parents. I think it is teams wanting to qualify and persuade a kid to play that gives them a step up. Even if they have to release that kid afterwards.
bmoser, you are right. We did terrible in an early tournament one year. Got knocked out in the 1st round of playoffs and came in 5th or 6th. Top 3 got berths. Turns out, the top 3 teams already had berths. Apparently when that happens, they pass the berths down. We got a berth in that tournament and never knew it until we were making changes to our roster later in the year. We were a 14 year old team and had a few kids who were playing middle school ball and didn't want to commit until after their season was over. Once they came to us, we tried to add them and got locked out of the roster page. This was like 2 months later. We had no idea we had been given a berth. USSSA would not take the berths back and let us try to re-earn a spot. We did not play any more USSSA tournaments that year. Don't assume that if there are 3 berths being given that the top three teams automatically get them. You could back into a berth, have your roster frozen and not even know it happened. |
| PS Iron Pigs |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 23:06:59
quote:
Originally posted by dirtdawgs
Well where we are the problem goes even futher than that. Teams are directly calling players off other teams and making them all kinds of "deals". You don't have to pay dues, we will buy you new personal catchers equipment, will hold practices close to your house and so on. My rules are simple I don't cut kids and I never recruit off another team. I make no promises of playing time or positions but try my best to get every kid tons of playing time. If they can't get enough time to make them happy then they can leave but I won't cut them. If a kid comes to me and says hes unhappy on another team then we will listen, but to call and recruit players off other teams at this age is downright slimey. I want to build a team and actually accomplish something when we win not "buy" all the talent. Guess its why I hate the Yankees. All coaches work hard to build the best team some just do it with dignity. Papa when a certain team plays you guys this year I will be calling you with a great scouting report lol.
Amen...Dirtdawgs |
| gausssa |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 22:02:40
Team Hopping.
This was a big topic this weekend and will be again in Loganville on Saturday. Not sure if USSSA National would ever change the rule but "if" we made it a Georgia USSSA rule. I would then here how our teams would be to a disadvantage with other states. So that is not going to happen.
Look guys, i made no bones about how i felt about players hopping from team to team and how "you" and the "parents" are playing russian rulete. You as a manger could refuse to allow a kid to play on multi roster. When you allow a kid to go and play for another team you and the parent are risking injury , burn-out and getting froze to a roster he doesn't want to be on. Then who gets called to clean up the mess when the other coach now decides he doesn't want to re-lease the kid because "his parents new he could get frozen and they were ok with it". NOW "I LOST ONE OF MY FREEZES"
That person is me....As i said SAT/SUN "our rules allow it but you control your team and you don't have to allow it. Trust me, these are not the kind of kids/parents you want on your team. When you don't play a weekend, you didn't play for a reason. You wanted your kids/parents to have a break and rest. Do something else fun. If a parent can't except that then maybe they need to find another team. Now i will get off my soap-box....My statements are my opinion's from years of coaching MAJOR travel ball teams. I, in no-way am trying to offend anyone or tell a coach how to run his team. Just think about it....Regards... |
| gausssa |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 21:34:16
It is very possible for a team to get frozen on April first that did not win or come in 2nd in a qualifier. We give a berth to 25% of the total field and always round up. Example: a 10 team event would get 3 berths and a 20 team tournament would get 5 berths. |
| dirtdawgs |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 21:21:44
Well where we are the problem goes even futher than that. Teams are directly calling players off other teams and making them all kinds of "deals". You don't have to pay dues, we will buy you new personal catchers equipment, will hold practices close to your house and so on. My rules are simple I don't cut kids and I never recruit off another team. I make no promises of playing time or positions but try my best to get every kid tons of playing time. If they can't get enough time to make them happy then they can leave but I won't cut them. If a kid comes to me and says hes unhappy on another team then we will listen, but to call and recruit players off other teams at this age is downright slimey. I want to build a team and actually accomplish something when we win not "buy" all the talent. Guess its why I hate the Yankees. All coaches work hard to build the best team some just do it with dignity. Papa when a certain team plays you guys this year I will be calling you with a great scouting report lol. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 20:51:15
Alter-Ego:
stay tuned.
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
bmoser,
April 1st, does not lock your roster, it is just the date that if you win a qualifer tournament other than an Elite qualifier, your roster is frozen. Before that date, even though you qualify, your roster is not locked. For Super NIT's, your roster is locked at that time even if it is before Apr 1st.
I also don't agree that the most occurrences are disgruntled parents. I think it is teams wanting to qualify and persuade a kid to play that gives them a step up. Even if they have to release that kid afterwards.
|
| bmoser |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 15:18:17
You don't have to win a qualifier to become frozen, the way I understand it. Multiple births can be awarded at any given event. Can anyone else out there confirm, or set me straight?
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
bmoser,
April 1st, does not lock your roster, it is just the date that if you win a qualifer tournament other than an Elite qualifier, your roster is frozen. Before that date, even though you qualify, your roster is not locked. For Super NIT's, your roster is locked at that time even if it is before Apr 1st.
I also don't agree that the most occurrences are disgruntled parents. I think it is teams wanting to qualify and persuade a kid to play that gives them a step up. Even if they have to release that kid afterwards.
|
| bballman |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 14:31:09
Usually, new kids are taken on in the fall as a temporary thing. They are there because a lot of kids play football in the fall and can't do fall baseball. However, every time I have seen this, the kid and family is told up front that it is only for the fall and the kid will basically have to try out again for the spring team. Or they are told that the fall is just a tryout and a decision will be made after the fall season whether the kid made the team or not.
If the coach said it would be a spot for the fall and summer and then cut him after the fall that is a different story. Even then, they are two separate seasons and changes are sometimes made. Maybe the family in this case thought it was a given that they would be on the spring team, but it really wasn't. When my son was 10, he played on an 11yr. old travel team in the fall. They had separate try outs for the spring. Coaches begged us to come out for tryouts, so we did. He didn't make the team and son was pretty devastated. Went back and played rec ball for the spring. That was his first travel ball experience. That team asked him to come play for them in their season ending tournament that next summer and admitted they made a mistake.
One of my most special baseball moments regarding my son was last spring HS season. He was a freshman pitching varsity. We played our rival HS at their field. He pitched a complete game. 6 innings, 71 pitches, scattered 7 singles and lost 1-0. It was still a very impressive outing. The rival team was ranked #3 in the state at the time. The coach that cut him was at the game and had nothing but good things to say about him. I was very tempted to say something about him being cut, but held my tounge.
So, crackedbats, if it is your son you are talking about, I know it hurts now, but hang in there. There are always lessons to be learned and your son may wind up being stronger as a result of it. Maybe one day this coach will see your son play for another team and wish he had stuck with him. |
| AllStar |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 14:25:29
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
crackedbats,
I agree with that for the younger ages it is a tough thing. It may not be as big of a deal with the HS players that don't start until June.
Players choose a coach/team based on what they are lead to believe will be provided (development, level of competition, etc). On the flip side, a coach/team takes on a player based on how they believe the player can be coached and be developed. Sometimes it takes the fall to figure out that this was not actually the case. When that happens, what do we want the coach or player to do?
Should the coach endure a spring/summer season of a disgruntled parent who's kid is lazy and does not want to work?
Should a kid have to endure a season of the coach not developing him or teaching the wrong things?
I think once things start in Feb, you have to stick it out because by then you should know what you have signed up for.
Before that, I think each case has to be looked at seperately.
One of the challenges, on both sides of the table, is that by the time you figure out that there isn't a fit a significant amount of dues have been paid by the families and a significant financial commitment to uniforms and tournaments, and coaching commitment to the committed players, have been made by the team.
Not to mention, the teams have (or should be)passing on players because their roster is full.
It's a timing issue with travel that makes it tough. Of course, the biggest issue is usually playing time, and you probably don't figure that one out until it's way too late. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 12:26:45
crackedbats,
I agree with that for the younger ages it is a tough thing. It may not be as big of a deal with the HS players that don't start until June.
Players choose a coach/team based on what they are lead to believe will be provided (development, level of competition, etc). On the flip side, a coach/team takes on a player based on how they believe the player can be coached and be developed. Sometimes it takes the fall to figure out that this was not actually the case. When that happens, what do we want the coach or player to do?
Should the coach endure a spring/summer season of a disgruntled parent who's kid is lazy and does not want to work?
Should a kid have to endure a season of the coach not developing him or teaching the wrong things?
I think once things start in Feb, you have to stick it out because by then you should know what you have signed up for.
Before that, I think each case has to be looked at seperately. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 10:43:39
crackedbats: Could you give me an example of what you are saying in your post. I 100% agree with you that the Coaches and I would even add parents should follow the same standards. I would like a specific example so that I could better answer your question. But Yes I do agree that if all of us adults could raise our standards a little that it would be a lot better for the kids. |
| crackedbats |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 09:16:33
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
.
When will we ever start teaching and maybe even preaching to the kids that they should finish what they start. Good or Bad finish the drill.
Papa-the same standards should be held to coaches when they select a player for the Spring season in the fall. They should honor their commitment to the player and parents and not cut the player in January. That is some of the lowest class things I have ever seen a coach pull. I know of one 10u team that has done so recently. And it absolutely destroys the player. |
| Peanutsr |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 07:46:01
Moser,
I applaud your coaches for doing what had to be done to protect your boys. In a situation like that I think that there should be some kind of sanction/suspension against the coaches. Their parents anger should have been directed at their own coaches.quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
PS Iron Pigs:
It happens, but not often. The most common circumstance is families become disenchanted w/ their coach/team, then change teams, mid Spring/Summer season w/o fully assessing the players eligibility status w/ each tourney org and discussing it with the new Coach. It can become a don't ask don't tell situation.
We protested such a player last season and the team was forced to forfeit. If I didn't go to 100+ games/year, I would not have recognized him. It took me 4 innings to recall who he was from the last time I saw him back in 9U. We were up by 4 runs at the time, so we pulled the plug on them. During the process, we also uncovered they were a AAA team playing in a AA sub state (shame on you Tourney Director). And they were mad as hornets at us! Go figure. They were a AAA team using a Major pitcher the whole game against us in a AA sub state qualifier. We felt bad for their boys because they were clueless, and in tears, but we had to protect our boys just the same.
If you plan to leave your team, do so before April 1st. After April 1st, your married to them until August 1st. If your a Coach and take on a new player after April 1st, do your homework.
Why would a Manager risk this? Because his team is incapable of going deep into the post season w/o this player, or he's not detail oriented, or he's just unfamiliar with USSSA rules and wont take the time to learn. We heard on 2 occasions last year "we play Little League, so we didn't know the rules". Well e-x-c-u-s-e m-e, but Little League has more rules than than the U.S. Government, so I ain't buying that.
6bomber:
April 1st is a huge date to mark into your calendar. Most anything goes up until that date, but afterwards, you'll be looking for cracks to crawl through if you know the rules and are trying to follow them.
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