| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rocky |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 12:53:23
Reading a post about paid coaches with sons on the team made me think about an interesting topic. Do players improve more when their dad is not coaching the team? Even if the dad is the best coach around, would he improve more playing for another coach that is good? I have seen coaches sons dog it in practice and games sometimes because they know dad is coaching. What do you experienced dads think or what have you seen in the past? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| caughtstealing |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 19:39:11
There are as many examples of situations that turned out great (Dad was their coach) as there are that didn't turn out great.
The "right" answer is - it depends...
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| coachdan06 |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 14:32:00
quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I say dont even have names on kids jerseys either, you are playing for a team not for yourself. Plus save some money, your coaches and fans know who your players are.
THANK YOU JOE PA
selflesness : That is why he is one of the all time top coaches and still is out there in his 80s : selflesness
(also has no kids on the team) |
| bambino_dad |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 13:22:49
And the difference between an instructor and a coach is....? Sports are as much mental as physical. Chipper's approach worked splendidly because it seems Chipper's parents identified what he needed and that particular private school (The Bolles School) gave him what he needed. Having lived in Jacksonville for a few years I happen to know the Bolles School as a tough school with the mindset of a sports academy.
quote:
I think using those are bad examples to bring up in this conversation not only because those are extraordinary kids but primarily because those are not team sports. Individual sports don't really have coaches as much as they do instructors. Tiger’s dad was a golf instructor as is Venus's father.
But Tiger's dad never instructed anyone before Tiger. Neither did Richard Williams instruct anyone before their daughters took up the game as toddlers. In fact, both Earl and Richard only learned to play their respective sports a year or two before their famous children were born. Earl Woods did, in fact, send Tiger to pro coaches as a child while continuing to train Tiger mentally for the game. Weirdly though, Earl was been a strong critic of Richard Williams's approach.
But the point is these kids are only extraordinary after the fact of discovery. We see their success and we say - "Exceptional!" Yet there are many, many such kids of similar temperament, ability, and drive that are out there but you never know until the relationship aspect of parent/ child bears fruit.
Read Earl Woods's interview about Tiger (and himself) here:http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2432057
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| Rocky |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 12:48:07
I say dont even have names on kids jerseys either, you are playing for a team not for yourself. Plus save some money, your coaches and fans know who your players are. |
| rickykelley |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 11:16:33
Being the head coach of a baseball team, your son needs to be able to play multiple positions or at least be the best player at his primary position. Which Chipper Jones was the best probably on his father's team in his father's eyes and probably as far as the team goes. But he benefited more by going out and earning his own way with his father their as his best friend/dad. During the early years up to about 12, the dad is probably perfect to be the head coach and make the decisions and his son is probably one of his best players. When they get nearer high school, we have dads that their sons are not really the best player for the position hurting the team by playing them in that position. During their try outs, they could have probably selected other players that would have been better for their team but would have hurt their son. So who is really benefitting from the dad being the head coach. My father coached me through middle school growing up and when I got to high school I was on my own. He sat in the stands and watched me play. When we drove home, we discussed what pitches I threw and also why did I throw a pitch to a certain batter. We did not have to discuss why he did not play me in a position or why he put someone in a certain position. Life was really great and we enjoyed our relationship all the way through high school, college,and then when I made it in the minors. There are boys on teams with their dad as the head coach that are not benefiting from their dad stepping aside. The boy may know that he is not right for a position anymore or should not have been the one in the game at that time but dad continues to put him there even when they are 13, 14, and 15. Finally they do not make the high school team because they performed poorly at the try out or maybe they were never good enough to make it anyway. It is fine to be on a team were the dad may be the head coach if through the try out his son really is the best player for the position. But what players did you not attract because they knew the son plays a specific position. We as dads want the best for our sons and sooner or later you will need to let go of the rope and start letting him earn his way in the sport before it is too late. The big thing when you are a coach or even an assistant coach of another team your son does not get the benefit of trying out. I had to drive my son when he was 10 & 11 about 20 miles from were we lived to get him a fair try out that allowed him to benefit from trying out. When you are a coach the other coaches know you and your son does not really get a fair evaluation because they know they will not get the kid. With me stepping aside this year it was great. As he called it dad it is like getting free batting practice. We had a blast and attended probably 15 try outs and everyone knew they had a shot at my son. He knew he had to step it up a notch because he was not guaranteed a thing. He had to earn his way on to a team. So who really benefited. I really say we both did because we traveled a lot together, I watched a lot in the stands, we ate out a little more, and really had fun. If I would have stayed were we were at the last 2 years, we would have attended the 2 day try out and be done with it. You only have your son for so long and then he becomes a teenager with probably a girlfriend. Let him get our on his own when he gets around 13 and have some fun with him. We only live once and all I have to say is I had a blast watching. |
| whits23 |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 21:02:12
My only pet peeve is coaches who wear the same number as their kid or have their name on their coaches jersey if they have a kid on the team. Your not coaching your kid your coaching your team..this aint the rec all stars |
| loveforthegame25 |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 17:11:13
Bambino you nailed it |
| clg003 |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 15:48:16
I think using those are bad examples to bring up in this conversation not only because those are extraordinary kids but primarily because those are not team sports. Individual sports don't really have coaches as much as they do instructors. Tiger’s dad was a golf instructor as is Venus's father. You won’t find many team sports players who have been coached by their parents from pampers to the pros. It truly is a different paradigm when you’re involved with a team and fighting for coaches attention against 10-20 other guys. Although I am sure Venus and Serena benefited greatly from their own battles for fathers attention. But take Chipper Jones as an example, Chipper’s father was his coach in high school when he was in the 9th grade. Before the 10th grade they sent Chipper off to a private school because they thought he was becoming complacent and that he was receiving preferential treatment. Chipper says this was the best things his parents ever did for him. “It turned out to be the best thing that my parents ever did for me. It forced me to grow up, to overcome my fears and insecurities, to be challenged academically, and to play sports in a place where I wasn't already guaranteed a spot because of my past performance. It made be prove myself all over again, which was something I needed at the time.” Chipper also said “I needed to be in an environment where I was playing for academic and athletic lives.” Chippers father went on to be the head coach of Stetson University and is regarded as a top notch baseball coach. But he knew at the time that the best thing for Chipper was to let him go. And his job as a coach was to win and you can bet Chipper was a STUD. How many high school coaches do you know that would send a player like Chipper Jones out the door? Well he did and it was only because he didn’t feel like it gave Chipper the best chance to succeed. To me, that is deep, very deep and explains a lot about what we are talking about in this thread. Now of course Chipper’s father was his instructor for many years. Chipper still looks to his father at times to work himself out of a slump. And I personally don’t see any issues with having your father being your instructor if he has the skills. But I don’t think having a father as a head coach year in and year out, as the person who makes the decisions about who plays where and when is as beneficial to the mental competitiveness and skill growth of the player as someone else could be. I don’t think the coach or the player can 100% of the time remove the relationship from the equation and complacency hampers thirst. |
| bambino_dad |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 13:47:56
As someome said earlier, a great deal depends on the relationship between father and child. Assuming the dad is a good coach, stuff has to bond. Work & play have to jibe. I think of Earl & Tiger, or Press & Pete, or even Richard & Venus & Serena. Daddy coaches from Pampers to professionals. There's a special relationship there. These men are not just good coaches, they're good dads, too.
But it's not only about the dads. The kids have to be sort of like young disciples and apprentices. They get better in part because they trust dad's work ethic, his character, his vision, and they stick to the sport.
Relationships like that are out there, but often cannot be duplicated.
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| rickykelley |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 11:50:30
As both a dad and a coach, you have to learn when to release control and just become a dad. When your son does reach about 7th grade which is around 12 - 13, he starts talking about high school baseball. If your son plays for you as a coach every year, he does not get the experience of having to try out. I have always expected the same thing of my son when he is on my team in fall rec ball which we do for fun as I do of other players. But I have not been his head coach of a travel team for the last 4 years, I may have been an assistant but never the one that has to make the decisions of were he plays. Taking your son to multiple try outs to find the right team for them is hard because you never want to let go but you need to learn to start to do that or they will depend upon you for life. Letting go too early could get your son hurt which is what happened to my son at 9 when I decided to try to totally step aside. You need to make sure without a doubt especially at a young age when to leave him on a team or when to remove them from a team. Some times a team looks great at the start but down the road, it looks to be a mistake. Once they get around 11 - 13 is a good time to really start backing away and become dad. Also, they need to know by trying out were they measure up among other players. What you find is even on some travel teams there is still daddy ball and you must find the right situation for your son to excel. It is hard to sit in the stands but trust me if your son makes a high school, college, or even the minors you are not going to be his coach. You can always play a little fall rec ball together or just get in the yard and play catch. But you and especially your son is better off with you finally stepping aside. |
| loveforthegame25 |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 19:48:17
Wham, if you would have asked him 2 years ago it would have been NO |
| 11baseball11 |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 15:01:03
I believe that giving your child the choice can be very good in different ways.
I went thru this same thing this past year. He learned that not all coaches are created equal when his skills started to slide. He was quick to ask dad to coach him again because he understood it was always about him.
It was also a good life lesson on making decisions and he had a new found respect for dads coaching skills. After the experience he listened better, work harder and no longer drops his head when I go to correct him. It has brought us closer and he feels like he can talk to me about anything because he feels more like an equal and now knows I will do anything to help him, even give up what I love to do.
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| clg003 |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 10:40:14
Of course a kid will not say that they do not want there Dads to give up the reigns. Every son loves their father and the thought of him being their coach touches them on more levels than just baseball (and that’s actually the issue). I would think that the last person you should ask is your child. The fact that the father and son relationship comes up in your explanation of why I am wrong is very interesting. This all alludes to the point I made about Daddy Dust not only affecting the child. I am not saying that coaching from this perspective is bad for everyone. I just don’t think it gives your child the best opportunity to improve there baseball skills, but it certainly can go a long way in fostering memories. And you’re right you can’t coach thirst but without a doubt you can hamper it. |
| w.whambold |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 09:55:19
loveofthegame,
there's a fine line between fear and respect.
asking your kid if he wanted to have dad coach or not, MOST kids will answer the question the way dad wants them to (or at least the way THE KID believes pop wants to hear), not what they really want, particularly if they want dessert after dinner.
The best coach a kid can have is the one he listens to.
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| coachdan06 |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 08:48:34
All great remarks here !
Something I didnt see mentioned is that the son knows pretty early on where his talent and playing level stands versus the other teammates.
He also knows the same as we that this changes year to year sometimes falling behind the other kids.
If the Father - Coach is gving more opportuniteis and attention ( good or bad) to the Son - Player he will know that too from about age 10 going forward.
This will embarrass him if bad and ruin his desire to improve on his own if good , if given more opportunities and shown favortism : which doesnt even address what it says to the other teammates and familys who see this and make judgements + react to it.
So if you have a coach who can show your son respect and teach him the game you should back off and let him succceed or fail on his own ,thi is if you truly are out for him and not for yourself : he will thank you in later years :-)
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| loveforthegame25 |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 22:00:22
CLG, blanket statement that I dont agree with, ask my son if I should give up the reigns. Im betting you hear NO. Smoltz takes his kid to pitching lessons because he is out of town most of the summer. and you cant coach thirst, that comes from within no matter who is coaching. |
| a1prog |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 19:28:37
i coached travel ball for 5 years and my son played for me. without exception i was harder on him than anyone. and there were times when he wouldnt talk to me and my wife threatened divorce. but as time went on we both learned and both got better at it. my kid, like all the boys i coached got better. because we took a team approach and developed the kids as a coaching staff. but once high school came i made a clear decision that my son, if he wanted to progress, needed to play for someone other than his father during the summer. this is the advice i got from a friend and it was spot on.
i think coaches kids simply get to a point where they need to hear it from someone else, see it from someone else and so forth. they can get better playing for dad if dad is a good coach- but only to a point. at 15 my son and i drew the line and it worked out well (though the high school guys were miserable, the summer team coaches were excellent). |
| Rocky |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 17:07:06
CLG003 so impressed by this response I went back and read some of your other posts. I completely agree with what you said here. The part about when they hit puberty and independence is dead on. Another good point was when you said "Having the same coach year in and year out is not a good approach because the kids become complacent and lose the thirst to constantly impress their coach." I give this reply 4 thumbs up. |
| lifeguard |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 15:37:23
I coached my son for a few years and he and I made an agreement early on. While I was wearing the team hat, we were coach/player. I've had to yank him off the field for being lazy, but it set an example to the rest of the team. Now when the game/practice is over and we finally get in the car and we remove our hats, we are father and son. At this point, I wouldn't mention the game anymore unless he wanted to talk about it. I said all of that to say this: I asked my son how he felt about me being the coach and if it mattered to him if I were there or not. I did this because at 12 or 13, I believe he has an idea of how "our" relationship is, both on and off the field. I am in agreement with earlier posts and will not coach him at 14, with the intent he gets used to new coaches, directions and philosphies. Sometimes, we should talk with the kids and ask their thoughts. |
| clg003 |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 13:59:36
John Smoltz takes his kids to a paid instructor for pitching lessons. To me that says it all. It has nothing to do with the knowledge a dad has or doesn’t have but it has everything to do with the delivery of the message. Some dads refuse to see this but it’s the truth. Daddy dust doesn’t only affect the kids, but it also affects Daddies. There is of course an exception because some kids can succeed no matter who the coach is but that has more to do with the child’s personality than it does the father’s ability to teach. But by in large I would say a paid instructor who the kid respects as a knowledgeable teacher of the game would win out 9 times out of 10. Plus learning how to manage yourself and your own development under a different and new coach is valuable in itself. Having the same coach year in and year out is not a good approach because the kids become complacent and lose the thirst to constantly impress their coach. Plus will the father teach him in high school? Do you want that to be their first experience with having to learn how to impress a new coach? In my unprofessional opinion it’s perfectly fine for a father to coach his child for 3-4 years as long as they are under 13. But when they hit puberty and start looking for independence then its likely time for dad to give up the reigns. |
| playhard |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 11:17:34
I had it both ways this past year. My son played on three diffent teams, I coached one of them. He played harder, his fundamentals,and work ethic were better. The other two teams one he learned and did nothing, but the other one he did learn and got better, just I did not see the work ethic all the time from him. I think you must have a good relationship with your son and keep it dad off the field and coach on the field. I would rather watch him play as he's getting older. I agree with PMaggio my relationship is much better as father-son rather than player coach. |
| PMaggio |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 09:24:33
I was lucky enough to coach my son all the way through 12. The two best things about finishing up at that age was 1) the fact that I was not running for re-election for the following year's team and 2) that we got to drive out of Cooperstown together both knowing that it was the last time I was going to be his baseball coach (at least on the field). While we still work on his game all the time and talk about it even more, our relationship is much better as 'father - son' rather than 'player - coach'. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 08:13:29
I think that a lot of the Dad/Son debate depends on the relationship that the Dad and Son have with each other. If they have a good relationship built on trust and respect then Dad Coaching generally works out good but if the relationship is not on solid ground and if there are any problems in their off field relationship then it turns into a harder road to hoe. Some of the best athletes that I have ever seen have been coached for many years by Dad. Their fundamentals, their desire, their work ethic, and their attitude being positively influenced by Dad. On the other hand I have also seen some great kids that developed little under the wings of Dad Coaching. This question will always depend on which Dad and Son you are talking about. It could work but it takes work to make it work. |
| bballman |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 08:04:39
I think it depends on the relationship between father and son. I have seen some relationships blow up due to the father being a coach and I have seen others flourish. I think what is important is that the dad recognizes when things start to go south, or when the son stops listening to him as a coach and steps back. If the father chooses to stay as coach in that situation, you are asking for trouble. Both baseball wise and personal wise. |
| loveforthegame25 |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 20:22:32
If dad lets his son dog it he shouldnt be coaching. My experience is I treat my son the same as everyone else on our team. He will actually benefit more because he asks me questions about different situations on the way home and on our way to the game. Ive actually learned over the past couple years that I may have been too hard on my son in the earlier days, we have a great relationship now based on learning and getting better. |
