|
|
|
Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!
|
| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TRB |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 11:36:00
My brother and I got into this discussion and was curious as to what others thought. Do you feel it's necessary or helpful overall for the younger age division kids, 12u and down, to play at the absolute highest level that their skill set will allow them to? Do they gain that much from it? I understand that most high level teams have better coaches etc. I'm asking strictly from a competition standpoint. I attended college on a baseball scholarship and he on a football scholarship. Athletics has changed so much from when we were young that I can't make a comparison between the development of kids then vs the development of kids now. The biggest problem I see on the baseball side of things are mental toughness and focus. Seems that kids have a harder time with failure now and parents have an even harder time allowing them to fail. IMO, the most important developmental factor for young kids is learning how to prepare correctly. Understanding what an approach at the plate is, understanding how to properly field, throw and catch. Most importantly learning to compete and learning what it takes to be successful at anything. I was just curious what the opinion here was. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bleacherseats |
Posted - 07/31/2016 : 15:30:33
Edited my original post because on reflection perhaps it sounded targeted. Not my intention.
I know this is an older post, but I was discussing this very thing with my rising 14u player today. He is not a major level player, more an average AAA player in the midst of puberty growth. Starting at 9, he played for our local park’s travel team and then has played for an academy-type travel team for the past 2 years. At 12u his team was an average AAA team. At 13u, the academy seemed to split their multiple teams by puberty/non-puberty and he ended up being one of the top kids playing on a AA team. Many of his friends, whose skills are well above the standard rec level IMO, still play in our local park rec league, summer all stars and some other tournaments. They win a lot of games. My son’s team had their fair share of losses this season. Heck, his friend’s team was probably better overall than my son’s last year hence the reason he wants to play with them now and our discussion. My biggest issue is that I don’t believe they play at the level they should be playing. I too was a collegiate athlete, but in an individual sport. Perhaps, I am swayed towards always competing, at a minimum, against the same level as your ability, but I believe it is the only place you can truly improve. You may not always win, but I believe you will work harder because you are forced to - because no one wants to lose all the time. You develop resilience. You get better by facing good pitching and pitching against good hitters, by playing teams that can consistently field balls and make few errors. In this age of not letting our kids fail, I believe it is perpetuated by parent's and even paid coaches letting their team/kid’s play below their abilities. Again, I get that it is more fun when you win, but I don't think it trumps everything. I get that travel ball is expensive and not everyone can or wants to afford it. I would love quality coaching and good baseball to cost less than $1000, (then again my parent's probably paid that for my sport back in the 80's and 90's). Sadly, this doesn’t exist in youth baseball, as a whole, in Atlanta anymore. So to answer the OP question, do I feel it is necessary for under 12, absolutely not – my son’s friends are really good players and they love the game and they have all the skills you mention. But at some point, to be playing against the best out there, there is a shift to travel ball and I don’t see that changing. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 07/31/2016 : 09:46:44
I still say have your son play on the most competitive team he can make (as long as it's one that HE actually wants to play for). However if it's a high level team the players should still have to earn their spots every year. If the new guy shows better than what they've got in practice then he should at least have a chance to put it in action in live play. Otherwise it's not so bad to play on a SLIGHTLY lower level team and continue to grow. |
| bfriendly |
Posted - 07/31/2016 : 00:21:45
Still a great topic.... This year we had to deal with a few things we never did before. After a short tryout season and a bunch of phone calls, we decided to go back to the same team. We never did that before this year and I am excited to see how this one goes...... We are going back to a great core and some new talent. We showed great improvement last year and with a few other changes this year, we might even get noticed
This should be a fun year and I wish everyone the best! Hope to see ya'll out on the field. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 17:15:02
Yes you are right caco3, and that's actually not the case for my kid, but there are alot we see it happen to and it's agonizing to watch (too wide of a talent spread).. I attribute it solely to dilution. And you are right sox in, that's exactly what I said near the very top of this thread if it's a job for a child instead of a game you are pushing too hard. It all really depends on the kid. |
| SoxIn7 |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 16:06:45
Agree with CaCo.
One other thing to consider: If parents push and push and push, especially at the lower age groups, chances of burnout increase tremendously. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 13:56:54
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Agree with you Bama 100%. Another big problem with "playing down" is the development of bad habits (perfect example..an infielder knows a certain kid can't handle a hard thrown ball so he starts to lob the ball to said kid). Now the correct response would be always throw as hard and fast as you can and if the kid on the receiving end drops it or can't handle it, it's on him. However on younger teams, player wants to WIN and at some point will adjust his plays to accommodate the weak guy to avoid an anticipated error. Fast forward to the next seasons tryouts..is he going to instantly throw hard and solid again without thinking about it when trying to make that majors team? Maybe but don't want to see any of this happen in the 1st place!!!
But again, you are talking about a Majors kid playing with a AA kid...it's apples and oranges to a Majors kid playing AAA.
Scenario A is why I took my kid out of rec ball, he was pulling his throws so Johnny could actually catch the ball on 1B. But I also believe as tbaallie2 said, by playing on a slightly lower team my son learned a lot of valuable lessons by learning how to handle the rough situations and is viewed as a leader on and off the field.
Playing slightly below his skill level gave him the chance to be a leader, and gave him confidence. When you are down by 1 with 2 runners on in the last inning with 2 outs he's the kid his team would want up to bat...that was a great way to grow up in baseball. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 11:45:20
Agree with you Bama 100%. Another big problem with "playing down" is the development of bad habits (perfect example..an infielder knows a certain kid can't handle a hard thrown ball so he starts to lob the ball to said kid). Now the correct response would be always throw as hard and fast as you can and if the kid on the receiving end drops it or can't handle it, it's on him. However on younger teams, player wants to WIN and at some point will adjust his plays to accommodate the weak guy to avoid an anticipated error. Fast forward to the next seasons tryouts..is he going to instantly throw hard and solid again without thinking about it when trying to make that majors team? Maybe but don't want to see any of this happen in the 1st place!!! |
| TRB |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 11:22:38
quote:
Originally posted by tbaillie2
I have seen good kids 'pulled' down by playing with kids "below" them on talent.
I've seen the really good kids though 'grow' by handling such situations and making those around them better.
Those are the ones one day that will be leaders (on and off the field).
Agreed on the last point.
I guess the line has been blurred on development of a team and development of an individual as a player. Baseball is a mental game above all else. The guys who excel at it are the guys who can focus on every single pitch regardless of what happened the pitch before. I hate cliche's and baseball is full of them, but "Doing YOUR job" has been lost somewhat at the youth level. I've always felt that a coach should coach to a standard. There has to be a baseline of expectation that everyone on the field is held to as a team. Then, from there you accept the physical mistakes because that is part of it. It's a game of failure, and make sure the kids know that and learn from it. Mental errors should be unacceptable, and your "studs" on the team should have less wiggle room then the average ones. You treat everyone fairly, but not the same. I can see both sides of the argument on if playing down or up helps or hurt. At the end of the day, baseball is an individual sport played by a team. With that being the case, if the focus is placed on every kid doing their job to the best of their ability I don't understand how Johnny missing a pop fly hurts the development of little stud Jimmy. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 10:18:15
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
There is a huge difference in a Major level kid playing with AA kids, that likely wouldn't be helpful and would likely hurt the Major level kid, but a mid Major kid playing with a AAA team can be a really good thing in my opinion.
Punishers, as for "cutting players for not performing"....REALLY!?!?!?!??! We should cut the 9 year old for not performing? I do hope you are talking about when the season is over because if you are talking mid-season cuts...well I suggest you list that in your postings because up until now I've been with you on how a team should be run but I would run far away from any youth level coach that cuts small children for not performing mid season, or because a better kid comes along. These are still children and this is still a game and I think we should all remember that and not treat them like they are 10 year old MLB players.
End of season cuts of course. I am all for fairness, but mid season weed out will happen naturally as those kids see limited playing time. This should occur starting age 12. Better kids will come along, that's life, there is always someone better and attrition happens. |
| tbaillie2 |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 09:45:41
I have seen good kids 'pulled' down by playing with kids "below" them on talent.
I've seen the really good kids though 'grow' by handling such situations and making those around them better.
Those are the ones one day that will be leaders (on and off the field). |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 09:35:39
I'm definitely not a supporter of "cutting" kids from a team mid-season for poor performance. However, I am a huge proponent of cutting kids' playing time due to not performing well. PT is earned in practice. There is pool play PT and bracket play PT. Bracket play PT is earned by performing well in pool play. If all the kids are on the appropriate level, then expectations of those kids for them should be the same or very similar. At the major level, you don't expect errors on routine plays. At the AA level, the team may average an error an inning. So, if the kids are playing on the right level, then there shouldn't be any major surprises. If a major-level kid somehow ends up on a AA team(happens more than you thing),there is a lot of frustration. That kid has to be strong enough mentally not to succumb to the despair, realize that it's not his fault, and hang on until a better opportunity arises. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 07:44:13
There is a huge difference in a Major level kid playing with AA kids, that likely wouldn't be helpful and would likely hurt the Major level kid, but a mid Major kid playing with a AAA team can be a really good thing in my opinion.
Punishers, as for "cutting players for not performing"....REALLY!?!?!?!??! We should cut the 9 year old for not performing? I do hope you are talking about when the season is over because if you are talking mid-season cuts...well I suggest you list that in your postings because up until now I've been with you on how a team should be run but I would run far away from any youth level coach that cuts small children for not performing mid season, or because a better kid comes along. These are still children and this is still a game and I think we should all remember that and not treat them like they are 10 year old MLB players. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 07/04/2016 : 20:44:34
quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development.
X3 or 4 here..........As frustrating as it is to watch as parents, you know its tough for the kids on the field.
Kids surrounded by players ready to get to work will do the same..............surround them by kids that dont hustle and goof off, well, what do you expect.
To the OP, There sure is an "Excuse" mentality among many parents these days. The kids of those parent stick out like sore thumbs and give excuses just like mom and dad........ its a direct result of the Nanny state our current country tries to employ.
I have seen first hand how kids who were several levels above some of their teammates eventually began regressing as the season moved along. The quit pushing themselves to get better because it couldn't make up for the less talented kids booting routine grounders or dropping routine pop flys. It's was obvious that some kids were playing at a lower level than they should have been and some were playing over their heads. Parents need to stop blaming others for their kids' shortcomings. As stated above, the kids begin making the same excuses themselves. It's the "Upward" mentality in travel ball that has kids feeling entitled.
I have seen this too. It's like they start to assimilate into that environment. Some kids can adapt to better playing environment and some can not. Until teams start cutting players for not performing we will see this continue. Then the excuses will not be an issue. We know in time those kids will be weeded out. Only wish it will happen sooner than later. |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 07/04/2016 : 16:36:20
quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development.
X3 or 4 here..........As frustrating as it is to watch as parents, you know its tough for the kids on the field.
Kids surrounded by players ready to get to work will do the same..............surround them by kids that dont hustle and goof off, well, what do you expect.
To the OP, There sure is an "Excuse" mentality among many parents these days. The kids of those parent stick out like sore thumbs and give excuses just like mom and dad........ its a direct result of the Nanny state our current country tries to employ.
I have seen first hand how kids who were several levels above some of their teammates eventually began regressing as the season moved along. The quit pushing themselves to get better because it couldn't make up for the less talented kids booting routine grounders or dropping routine pop flys. It's was obvious that some kids were playing at a lower level than they should have been and some were playing over their heads. Parents need to stop blaming others for their kids' shortcomings. As stated above, the kids begin making the same excuses themselves. It's the "Upward" mentality in travel ball that has kids feeling entitled. |
| bfriendly |
Posted - 07/04/2016 : 09:23:44
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development.
X3 or 4 here..........As frustrating as it is to watch as parents, you know its tough for the kids on the field.
Kids surrounded by players ready to get to work will do the same..............surround them by kids that dont hustle and goof off, well, what do you expect.
To the OP, There sure is an "Excuse" mentality among many parents these days. The kids of those parent stick out like sore thumbs and give excuses just like mom and dad........ its a direct result of the Nanny state our current country tries to employ. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 07/03/2016 : 11:07:20
The dilution usually occurs in areas where there are a lot of teams. If you want a lot of reps, play for a lower level team and do not expect anything. The logistics of travel where most major level teams are is a factor. If you are lucky enough to get on a existing major team, do not expect a lot of playing time as the new player. You may even be pigeon holed if they have 12 or more players and only batting 9. You may have to take a chance on an new major team. Look at the Ga Cards 10u for example: 1st year major team that has done more damage without have a big named machine behind them. The way some of teams looking for players are posting, seems like everyone is major or expecting to play major. I see a lot of teams getting a reality check this upcoming playing year and dropping down playing level. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 23:43:13
^^yes Bama goes back to a comment I made somewhere else about dilution of talent...only a couple of true majors teams in reasonable driving distance per region, and if there isn't an opening in your "spot" you just have to suck it up sometimes and deal with a few pop fly droppers... or play say, RF, when you are a stud infielder because the other stud kids playing those spots just don't leave . Tough decisions. To go back to the original question...at younger ages it depends also on what's available regarding how competitive of a team your kid plays on! He may be up for the challenge but the opportunity just may not be available. |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 10:04:59
I'm sure all of us have seen the body language of the kids Crazyforbball described above. The pitcher who has pitched his way out of a bases-loaded jam only to have a kid drop a routine fly in the OF. It's hard from them to bounce back from that. When you have stud players on teams with kids who can't make routine plays, it can take a lot out of those players. They begin to hate even going to practice or playing games with the kids they see as liabilities. Kids should "stay in their respective lanes". Good players should play with similar talent and early learners should play with the same. |
| Falco07 |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 08:31:01
As RoamingCF stated to watch out for...My kid was 'pigeon-holed' at 8U kid pitch. The coach ran the team like it was a major league club. Beware of that at the younger ages (8U-12U)...too young to restrict your kid to OF-only. Talent was pretty equal, but the coach became obsessed with winning. His philosophy was max reps at one position, so after being labeled an outfielder, IF/P chances were basically non-existent. Wouldn't even switch the line-up winning 10-2 in the last inning of a pool play game. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 08:23:30
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 19:38:03
quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
Our experience when my (major level) son was on a team with kids of varying levels (kids who could easily play at major level down to kids who were clearly AA -- this was a team "marketed" to us as a high AAA/majors team) was that 1) my child got overplayed pitching and catching, big time; and 2) my child got frustrated when the lower level kids weren't "doing their jobs" especially when it came to regularly failing to catch a well-thrown ball.
Did he "gain from it?" As this was his first year playing travel, coming from rec, he definitely gained in skills and knowledge from the coaches. But why not find a team where the coaches are good, development is good, AND you're playing with and against other kids that are of your same level? Especially if you're concerned that kids aren't learning how to compete and deal with failure -- best way to do that is to play at your level, IMHO.
Have to agree with you here. Playing with kids on the same level or better helps more than can be imagined. Playing on a team where the others are struggling to make routine plays does nothing for development and doesn't help the best players get better either. That's dilution.
I personally try to stay away from those parents who always say it's about fun when the team cant even put a point on the score board. |
| TaxiMom |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 16:02:18
Our experience when my (major level) son was on a team with kids of varying levels (kids who could easily play at major level down to kids who were clearly AA -- this was a team "marketed" to us as a high AAA/majors team) was that 1) my child got overplayed pitching and catching, big time; and 2) my child got frustrated when the lower level kids weren't "doing their jobs" especially when it came to regularly failing to catch a well-thrown ball.
Did he "gain from it?" As this was his first year playing travel, coming from rec, he definitely gained in skills and knowledge from the coaches. But why not find a team where the coaches are good, development is good, AND you're playing with and against other kids that are of your same level? Especially if you're concerned that kids aren't learning how to compete and deal with failure -- best way to do that is to play at your level, IMHO. |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 15:26:36
quote:
Originally posted by TRB
First post wasn't impressive at all but I appreciate it! Looking back on it all everything I have done in my life that has been good I can directly relate to the lessons that my dad used baseball to reinforce. It's a great teacher. Roll Tide BTW.
Roll Tide. I can only hope that my son feels the same way years from now. |
| TRB |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 14:28:20
First post wasn't impressive at all but I appreciate it! Looking back on it all everything I have done in my life that has been good I can directly relate to the lessons that my dad used baseball to reinforce. It's a great teacher. Roll Tide BTW. |
| ABC_Baseball |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 14:19:39
My biggest complaint about what I have seen with players in travel baseball is the lack of mental toughness. I’m not talking about with kids 8 or 9 years old. Travel ball and kid pitch is a different animal and everyone has to adjust and encouragement is needed along the way. Sports are competitive and a winner is picked for a reason. Children needs to learn how to compete. Some may be naturally competitive, but parents should also foster that spirit if they are going to let their children play competitive sports.
The biggest way I see parents not letting their kids fail is “excuse making.” By the time a kid hits 11 or 12, they should know what is acceptable and what is not. As someone that wants to push the envelope and play tougher competition in order to spur growth in my child, I can’t stand it when I hear excuses from parents when their kids don’t do well.
|
|
|
| Georgia Travel Baseball - NWBA |
© 2000-22 NWBA |
 |
|
|
