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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| OPHornets |
Posted - 05/31/2016 : 15:47:41
Guys (and gals too),
I wanted to post this here to once again keep the discussion going about protecting the arms of youth players. After watching a 12U kid throw 112 pitches at a recent tournament, I thought this article was awfully timely.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-high-school-baseball-pitch-count-illinois-met-20160524-story.html
167 pitches all because the kid said he had plenty left. Jeepers Creepers! Remember, its on us. |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sebaseball |
Posted - 06/17/2016 : 18:09:09
quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
Can a pitcher at 10 or 11 under these rules not still pitch 20 pitches on Saturday and then 20 on Sunday, I think a pitcher warming up in this situation is going to throw probably 30 or more in the pen then another 8-10 per inning then same thing the next day. Then come back on Tuesday and throw some more? I still think doing anything as ballistic as throwing should not be done but once a week. With these rules kids will be asked to throw more often but fewer pitches I rather my son throw once and be done.
If you are blindly following the guidelines as the gospel, throwing only 20 pitches technically allows you to pitch everyday. However, we know that doing so isn't healthy either. USSSA has a 3 day maximum as well. If you pitch 3 consecutive days, you have to rest on the 4th day. Others probably have similar rules too.
IMO, these guidelines aren't perfect and aren't based on proven scientific facts, but rather, best educated guesses. They're an attempt to protect young arms that have been proven to be abused when pitch limitations are left unchecked. I believe they'll help in this purpose.
We talk alot about the year round throwing and I agree with that being a big part of the problem, but it's also the amount of games played in a "season" as compared to yesteryear. When I was 12 (1982), there was only Little League where the pitch limit was six innings per week with 1-2 games a week in a 12 game season before heading into the playoffs. You might play 15 games and another 10 if you made All-Stars. You didn't play organized baseball again until the next season. I've kept what I believe to be a sane 8-10 tournament spring schedule and 4-5 tournament fall schedule for our team, so we've averaged 50-60 games a year. There are plenty of teams that play more than that just in the spring season alone. We do nothing in July & August and have one reduced throwing practice a week in November,December & the first half of January. In mid-January, we'll start going to 2 practices a week and ramping up the throwing to get them ready for the spring season. In four seasons from 10U through 13U, we've not had one arm issue from any of our players. |
| Hurricane |
Posted - 06/17/2016 : 15:09:17
Can a pitcher at 10 or 11 under these rules not still pitch 20 pitches on Saturday and then 20 on Sunday, I think a pitcher warming up in this situation is going to throw probably 30 or more in the pen then another 8-10 per inning then same thing the next day. Then come back on Tuesday and throw some more? I still think doing anything as ballistic as throwing should not be done but once a week. With these rules kids will be asked to throw more often but fewer pitches I rather my son throw once and be done. |
| offspeed4 |
Posted - 06/11/2016 : 10:21:18
I like the pitching limitations. It requires a team to utilize more players on the mound and is a reasonable safeguard for the players. These young players should not pitch 2-4 innings on Saturday and then 2-5 more on Sunday. I think the pitch limitations are great. |
| dad4kids |
Posted - 06/11/2016 : 00:04:29
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
The finite number of pitches in an arm ("only so many bullets") theory has been rejected by most who study arm injuries. Velocity, limits, rest, mechanics, and genetics are recognized as the main factors; it's not inevitable. If a kid with good mechanics is pitched responsibly, there's no reason why he should have early arm injuries. Used excessively, he could break down early (regardless of how many pitches he's thrown in a lifetime).
Doubt there's many kids who start pitching at 14 and make it far as pitchers. Too much to learn for the position starting so late. Starting earlier doesn't mean there has to be injury either. Justin Verlander started pitching at 9 yrs old and has had few injuries in nearly fifteen years of college and pro ball (never been sidelined for a season with injury).
I am not an expert....but if eric cressey is willing to use the phrase I'm willing to believe it has some merit.
http://ericcressey.com/tag/pitching-mechanics/page/2
According to his website, Cressey is a "strength and conditioning specialist" with a background in powerlifting - not baseball. |
| 743 |
Posted - 06/10/2016 : 14:49:51
I finally agree with CaCo3Girl on something! her post above.
I have to say the pitching rules at PG are going to cause more and more issues with forfeits and arguments, I think its a shame. Just let the coaches handle the pitch counts and let the parents handle the coaches. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 06/08/2016 : 10:10:19
quote:
Originally posted by inthestands
I recommend the book The Arm by Jeff Passan (the whole book, not reviews or articles about the book). You finish it and realize there are just so many variables that influence what keeps a pitcher's arm healthy. The biggest predictor of injury: a prior injury. And there are a lot of charlatans out there (not talking about surgeons) with "cures" and solutions and ways to increase velocity. The epidemiological studies underway by MLB hold a lot of promise for better understanding. Read it.
The Arm does have some very interesting points, but it also has some sensationalism interwoven within those points. The sections about arm care and what to look for before an injury happens was truly educational. The parts where they then began to call out children by name on who would succeed and who wouldn't and which organizations ruined them and ruined players in general...that was not so educational but it sure did cause a storm in the media.
No one knows what truly causes arm issues and everyone's genetics are so different that even if they did figure out what happened to one kids arm it likely wouldn't apply to the next kid. You can follow every pitch smart guideline and every shut down period, follow religiously how to ramp up properly and your kids arm might still blow. I do really like that more focus is being put on looking for danger signs before the blow...fixing a partial tear, or a strain is WAY better than needing a 14u kid to have TJ surgery.
|
| inthestands |
Posted - 06/08/2016 : 09:11:51
I recommend the book The Arm by Jeff Passan (the whole book, not reviews or articles about the book). You finish it and realize there are just so many variables that influence what keeps a pitcher's arm healthy. The biggest predictor of injury: a prior injury. And there are a lot of charlatans out there (not talking about surgeons) with "cures" and solutions and ways to increase velocity. The epidemiological studies underway by MLB hold a lot of promise for better understanding. Read it. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 06/07/2016 : 17:16:42
quote:
Originally posted by ABC_Baseball
It's just not smart, that is all I can say. I understand a player wanting to give his all for his coach/team. I don't think anyone should approach 100 pitches in any 1, 2, or 3 day period besides an adult. I can't even understand a college guy throwing almost 200 in back to back days. Rest is important. I think too many kids in travel ball are 1) pitching too much and 2) giving too much effort on most pitches.
I've always looked at pitching as a necessary evil. I don't think it is something my lefty will excel at, but he will be asked to do it as long as he plays until a certain point. The arm is a tool so I don't mind the development, but you can't have a kid throw hundreds of pitches a spring season b/c he is an ACE. He may not be an ACE for long and you can't play baseball without being able to throw.
If it is travel ball, I can't understand why the parent would let it happen. No scholarships, world series championships or million dollar deals are on the line. Again, your kid doesn't have a shot at any of that if they can't throw. It may just be me, but I look at pitchers like RBs in the NFL. It seems like they get chewed up quickly and then they are done and organizations move on to the next guy. Granted there is a great reward for the guys that excel at it, but a lot of guys seems to get left with life long arm problems.
ABC, you are dead on. Pitchers are expendables, 90% of them do not last last long even with TJ surgery. This is why you will always see more pitchers in the draft than any other position player. Teams know this and it's a gamble, that's why they go thru pitchers more than any other position. |
| ABC_Baseball |
Posted - 06/07/2016 : 10:51:55
It's just not smart, that is all I can say. I understand a player wanting to give his all for his coach/team. I don't think anyone should approach 100 pitches in any 1, 2, or 3 day period besides an adult. I can't even understand a college guy throwing almost 200 in back to back days. Rest is important. I think too many kids in travel ball are 1) pitching too much and 2) giving too much effort on most pitches.
I've always looked at pitching as a necessary evil. I don't think it is something my lefty will excel at, but he will be asked to do it as long as he plays until a certain point. The arm is a tool so I don't mind the development, but you can't have a kid throw hundreds of pitches a spring season b/c he is an ACE. He may not be an ACE for long and you can't play baseball without being able to throw.
If it is travel ball, I can't understand why the parent would let it happen. No scholarships, world series championships or million dollar deals are on the line. Again, your kid doesn't have a shot at any of that if they can't throw. It may just be me, but I look at pitchers like RBs in the NFL. It seems like they get chewed up quickly and then they are done and organizations move on to the next guy. Granted there is a great reward for the guys that excel at it, but a lot of guys seems to get left with life long arm problems. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 06/07/2016 : 09:58:11
quote:
Originally posted by sebaseball
Just in case anybody believes it's just "evil/stupid" travel ball coaches who abuse pitchers, I offer you the Univ. of Arizona's Head Baseball Coach, Jay Johnson.
From Kendall Roger's tweet:
After a two-run homer in the 8th by ULL, #Arizona finally pulls Nathan Bannister. He threw 198 pitches Friday/today combined.
And I will add, it was in a game that didn't mean jack crud! |
| sebaseball |
Posted - 06/07/2016 : 08:55:29
Just in case anybody believes it's just "evil/stupid" travel ball coaches who abuse pitchers, I offer you the Univ. of Arizona's Head Baseball Coach, Jay Johnson.
From Kendall Roger's tweet:
After a two-run homer in the 8th by ULL, #Arizona finally pulls Nathan Bannister. He threw 198 pitches Friday/today combined.
|
| jaguars18 |
Posted - 06/06/2016 : 16:08:05
people who care about arms dont need to read it and people who dont care it wont do any good |
| Gapper |
Posted - 06/06/2016 : 14:28:33
We saw a 9u kid come within a few pitches of reaching 100 in a single game over the weekend and another on the same team was over 90 pitches between two appearances on the same day. These are the kinds of situations that are not good for young arms. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 06/06/2016 : 14:25:28
quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
The finite number of pitches in an arm ("only so many bullets") theory has been rejected by most who study arm injuries. Velocity, limits, rest, mechanics, and genetics are recognized as the main factors; it's not inevitable. If a kid with good mechanics is pitched responsibly, there's no reason why he should have early arm injuries. Used excessively, he could break down early (regardless of how many pitches he's thrown in a lifetime).
Doubt there's many kids who start pitching at 14 and make it far as pitchers. Too much to learn for the position starting so late. Starting earlier doesn't mean there has to be injury either. Justin Verlander started pitching at 9 yrs old and has had few injuries in nearly fifteen years of college and pro ball (never been sidelined for a season with injury).
I am not an expert....but if eric cressey is willing to use the phrase I'm willing to believe it has some merit.
http://ericcressey.com/tag/pitching-mechanics/page/2 |
| dad4kids |
Posted - 06/06/2016 : 12:18:46
The finite number of pitches in an arm ("only so many bullets") theory has been rejected by most who study arm injuries. Velocity, limits, rest, mechanics, and genetics are recognized as the main factors; it's not inevitable. If a kid with good mechanics is pitched responsibly, there's no reason why he should have early arm injuries. Used excessively, he could break down early (regardless of how many pitches he's thrown in a lifetime).
Doubt there's many kids who start pitching at 14 and make it far as pitchers. Too much to learn for the position starting so late. Starting earlier doesn't mean there has to be injury either. Justin Verlander started pitching at 9 yrs old and has had few injuries in nearly fifteen years of college and pro ball (never been sidelined for a season with injury). |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 06/06/2016 : 07:46:32
quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by OPHornets
Guys (and gals too),
I wanted to post this here to once again keep the discussion going about protecting the arms of youth players. After watching a 12U kid throw 112 pitches at a recent tournament, I thought this article was awfully timely.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-high-school-baseball-pitch-count-illinois-met-20160524-story.html
167 pitches all because the kid said he had plenty left. Jeepers Creepers! Remember, its on us.
I think we saw him pitch too
I agree too many pitches are thrown by our boys nowadays. But playing devil's advocate, how do you get a horse of a stud pitcher without him throwing a lot of pitches?
I just check the Babe's numbers and in a 5 year stretch(Prime) he pitched over 200, then 300 and again well over 300, then 150+ and a 100+ INNINGS!......lets say he was Super-Efficient and only threw 10 Pitches per inning(Yes, its more but let us keep it simple), do the simple math on that.......
I dont know his arm situation, but the innings sure did regress the last 2 of the 5 years mentioned. Perhaps it also supports the idea that there is such a thing as TOO MANY PITCHES
Can't compare a grown man to a group of 12u kids. There shouldn't be such a thing as a stud pitcher or a go-to pitcher at 12u because when that happens that kid typically won't be able to throw by 17u.
There is a theory that there are only so many bullets in a person's arm, the more you use the arm in youth ball the less bullets there are for college and pro ball. It would be interesting for someone to do an internet search of notable pitchers over the last 20 years and when they allowed their son to pitch...my guess would be 14u and above is when the real pitching began for these kids of knowledgeable parents. |
| sebaseball |
Posted - 06/05/2016 : 19:33:13
quote:
I think we saw him pitch too
I agree too many pitches are thrown by our boys nowadays. But playing devil's advocate, how do you get a horse of a stud pitcher without him throwing a lot of pitches?
I just check the Babe's numbers and in a 5 year stretch(Prime) he pitched over 200, then 300 and again well over 300, then 150+ and a 100+ INNINGS!......lets say he was Super-Efficient and only threw 10 Pitches per inning(Yes, its more but let us keep it simple), do the simple math on that.......
I dont know his arm situation, but the innings sure did regress the last 2 of the 5 years mentioned. Perhaps it also supports the idea that there is such a thing as TOO MANY PITCHES
Part of Babe's inning decline was his increased usage as an OF in order to get his bat in the lineup everyday. You gotta remember that he was the most massive outlier in the history of the game to that point as far as power. And early on, he out homered many ML teams.
He started playing full time in the big leagues in 1915 as a 20 year old. His rookie year, he had 217.6 IP, 18 wins, 16 CGs & a 1.15 WHIP while hitting .315 with 4 HR in 92 ABs. In 1916 & 1917, he won 23 (23 CGs) & 24 (35 CGs) while throwing well over 300 IP with a 1.07 WHIP both years. He got about 150 ABs each of those years with a few HR each year, and was a .300 hitter.
In 1918, he had 382 ABs and hit .300 with 11 HR. That tied him with Tillie Walker for the ML Lead in HR. That same year, he won 13 games with 18 CGs while tossing 166.3 innings with a 1.04 WHIP. The next year, he only had 133.3 IP & 9 wins with 12 CGs. But he hit .322 with 29 HR in 423 ABs (101 BB & only 58 Ks). He won the HR crown with Gravvy Cravath finishing a distant 2nd with 12 HR. Babe's 29 HR were more than the combined efforts of 10 ML teams (there were only 16 teams at the time). So, by himself, he out homered 62% of ML teams. He got sold to the Yankees after the 1919 season and switched to the OF full time where he put up back to back 50+ HR seasons (54 & 59). His 54 HR in 1920 out homered all but one ML team. His 59 HR in 1921 out homered 8 teams.
Babe single handedly revolutionized the game away from the deadball era and proved the hypothesis that "chicks dig the long ball" as a concrete fact. He was Superman before there was a Superman and why he's still revered as the greatest of all time.
The game has changed over the years and the mindset of "finishing what you started" is long gone. In today's era of specialization and max effort appearances, it's going to be the rare guy that even gets over 200 IP. Not to mention CYA decisions that made due to the massive investment that is now made in these players. Push a $100 or $200 million dollar guy too hard and he breaks down... whose head is gonna roll? With all the advances in player development, training & conditioning, advance scouting, tendency reports, video, etc, the margin for error is much smaller than yester-year and there aren't parts of lineups that starters can "let up" on to conserve energy/pitches. Today's mindset is to go 6 & turn it over to the pen. 30 starts at 6 IP is 180 for the year. |
| bfriendly |
Posted - 06/05/2016 : 09:32:03
quote:
Originally posted by OPHornets
Guys (and gals too),
I wanted to post this here to once again keep the discussion going about protecting the arms of youth players. After watching a 12U kid throw 112 pitches at a recent tournament, I thought this article was awfully timely.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-high-school-baseball-pitch-count-illinois-met-20160524-story.html
167 pitches all because the kid said he had plenty left. Jeepers Creepers! Remember, its on us.
I think we saw him pitch too
I agree too many pitches are thrown by our boys nowadays. But playing devil's advocate, how do you get a horse of a stud pitcher without him throwing a lot of pitches?
I just check the Babe's numbers and in a 5 year stretch(Prime) he pitched over 200, then 300 and again well over 300, then 150+ and a 100+ INNINGS!......lets say he was Super-Efficient and only threw 10 Pitches per inning(Yes, its more but let us keep it simple), do the simple math on that.......
I dont know his arm situation, but the innings sure did regress the last 2 of the 5 years mentioned. Perhaps it also supports the idea that there is such a thing as TOO MANY PITCHES |
| sebaseball |
Posted - 06/01/2016 : 09:06:11
Interesting read. Right here in GA in the 2016 AA Semi-final series Greater Atlanta Christian and Lovett both pitched their game 2 starters 11 (yes, eleven) straight innings. The GAC kid ended up throwing 155 pitches while the Lovett kid went 120. Apparently, the GHSA one day maximum innings limit is 10, so both schools violated the rule and self-reported themselves after the fact. I haven't heard anything about the GHSA giving out any sort of punishment to either team.
Here's an article where a coach and player (I don't agree with the player getting suspended) got suspended in Kansas because of pitching 10 innings in one game (limit was 9):
http://www.kansas.com/sports/high-school/article79047657.html |
| baseballready |
Posted - 06/01/2016 : 07:37:22
How about a 9 year old throwing 1000+ pitches from Feb - May? Consistently throwing 100+ pitches per weekend?
If that is only pitcher you have, you probably need to do a better job developing others or that kid will be done before he is 12. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 06/01/2016 : 01:44:56
Pro's do not throw that many pitches. Why would a coach allow a 12 year old to throw that many pitches? I don't care how much he had left. It's a safety concern at that point. Did the team not have any other pitchers? If not, that's the coaches fault for not training other players to pitch. I personally like the pitch count idea. Just thinking about this makes me sick. |
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