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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| toprank |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 14:33:41
Saw a game the other day. Umpire in infield calls Balk with men on base, Pitcher throws the pitch, it's hit for a double, 2 runs score. Umpire says runners advance one base but batter must go back and bat again. Coach argues call and the play stands allowing runners to score and batter on base. What is the ruling in USSSA? I know in according to high school rules the ball is dead on the balk and it's no pitch. In pros I think play stands as above. Anyone care to shed any light on this? |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rocky |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 07:10:11
Infield fly rule, my understanding is whenever there is a force play at 3B with less than 2 out, you call the infield fly rule. Now does the umpire have to call it out loud? I don't know? That is a judgement call I guess, is the ball catchable is it in the outfield? I saw in that same tournament an umpire not call it out loud, just pointed and that cost the offensive team some outs too. |
| ronicard |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 12:50:18
I'm not familiar with the high school rule, but that's correct with USSSA and MLB. For what it's worth, I'm not sure what the USSSA ruling would be on the situation noted on the balk and overthrow on a pickoff. I do know that in the pros, if a pitcher balks and overthrows the base, the play is allowed to continue if ALL runners advance one base. Not sure if USSSA has a similar rule or not. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 10:07:33
Ok, to recap this:
HS Balk rule says: Dead Ball, No pitch, runners advance 1 base.
MLB and USSSA rule: Dead ball unless the batter swing at the pitch and reaches safely, along with all other base runners advancing at least one base safely.
This is why the rule always is, "You might as well swing in case you get a shot in the gap." If you swing and miss, according to the rules, the ball is dead, the runners advance one base, and it is not a strike.
Is this everyone's understanding? |
| FLBASEBALLFAN |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 22:56:53
Highcheese is absolutly correct. USSSA uses MLB modified rules, not high school. This is a fact.
You have to know before you go to the tournament what you are playing.
quote:
Originally posted by highcheese
USSA:
8.08.E.13 The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop.
Rule 8.08.E.13 Penalty: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one (1) base without
liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first (1st) on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit
batter, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one (1) base, in which case the play
proceeds without reference to the balk.
Approved Ruling: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate,
a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
Approved Ruling: A runner who misses the first (1st) base to which he is advancing and who is
called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one (1) base for the purpose of this
rule.
High School: Balk: Ball immediately dead
Pros: If balk is followed by a pitch, play continues. If all runners including the batter-runner advance at least one base, balk is nullified, runners liable to be put out. If there is a balk to a base and ball is thrown to the base, ball remains alive. If runner from first advances to second and continues to third while missing second, he is out on appeal.
Have to really make sure which set of rules you are playing by and keep a copy handy in tournaments. in your circumstance the play continues until it is over by standard interpretations, ala double and runs score, next bstter. Need to always check with umps prior to game if they know what set of rules we are playing by too. Most umps will usually default to high scholl for travel ball tourneys unless otherwise advised. A good crew will usually check and also have instruction from head umpire too.
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| ronicard |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 11:46:58
quote:
Originally posted by wildcats9596
This would have been something you could have protested, right? It's a rule interpretation, not a judgement call. I always print the hosting organization's rules and have them with me in case something like this comes up.
And $100. :)
Not sure I would mess with it for a pool game, but for an elimination game, I would.
quote:
Originally posted by ronicard
I disagree.
Rule 8.05i deals with when the ball is in play and is a general rule. If you will go on down in highcheese's post or if you will go read the USSSA rule book, you will see that there is a specific rule regarding when the pitcher does not come set which overrides 8.05i in this specific circumstance. That rule is 8.08.E.13 and it reads:
8.08.E If there is a runner, or runners on base, it is a balk when:
The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop.
Rule 8.08.E.13 Penalty: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one (1) base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first (1st) on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit
batter, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one (1) base, in which case the play
proceeds without reference to the balk.
We had this one come up last year in a USSSA tournament. The umpire ruled incorrectly that it was a dead ball and promised to throw me out of the game if I said one more word when I attempted to appeal the call. It ended up costing us a run and we lost that game by 1 run. I went home, printed out the USSSA rules and brought it back to show the umpire the next day. He and the tournament director apologized for the incorrect call and agreed that the run should have been allowed. Obviously, there was no way to correct the mistake but hopefully that umpire now knows the difference.
It could have been. But I wasn't coaching at this game; I was merely in the stands watching my son's team play at the time. So I was just a fan in the stands telling the ump that he had gotten it wrong. (Never a recipe to win the argument, by the way!) The coaches all told me after the game that they had never heard of that rule either so they wouldn't have known to protest it either.
To be completely honest, the only reason I knew of it was due to an incident that happened to me in college:
I was pitching and was trying to vary my rhythm and apparently didn't come set long enough to satisfy the umpire as I was checking the runner on 2nd. The umpire yelled balk but the batter hit one down the left field line for a double himself. When the ump went to return the batter to the box and the on-base runner to 3rd (instead of scoring like he had), their coach protested and brought out the rule book. After about a 3 or 4 minute delay, the play was allowed to stand, with the run scoring and the runner on 2nd base. That vivid memory is burned into my head for some reason.  |
| alphadog |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 09:33:01
anyone wanna discuss the infield-fly rule, too?? LOL |
| wildcats9596 |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 08:49:56
This would have been something you could have protested, right? It's a rule interpretation, not a judgement call. I always print the hosting organization's rules and have them with me in case something like this comes up.
And $100. :)
Not sure I would mess with it for a pool game, but for an elimination game, I would.
quote:
Originally posted by ronicard
I disagree.
Rule 8.05i deals with when the ball is in play and is a general rule. If you will go on down in highcheese's post or if you will go read the USSSA rule book, you will see that there is a specific rule regarding when the pitcher does not come set which overrides 8.05i in this specific circumstance. That rule is 8.08.E.13 and it reads:
8.08.E If there is a runner, or runners on base, it is a balk when:
The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop.
Rule 8.08.E.13 Penalty: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one (1) base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first (1st) on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit
batter, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one (1) base, in which case the play
proceeds without reference to the balk.
We had this one come up last year in a USSSA tournament. The umpire ruled incorrectly that it was a dead ball and promised to throw me out of the game if I said one more word when I attempted to appeal the call. It ended up costing us a run and we lost that game by 1 run. I went home, printed out the USSSA rules and brought it back to show the umpire the next day. He and the tournament director apologized for the incorrect call and agreed that the run should have been allowed. Obviously, there was no way to correct the mistake but hopefully that umpire now knows the difference.
|
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 22:27:51
Ron,
I have to stand corrected. I have had several discussions with umpires with different interpretations but I think your overview summarizes it well. |
| ronicard |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 16:13:15
I disagree.
Rule 8.05i deals with when the ball is in play and is a general rule. If you will go on down in highcheese's post or if you will go read the USSSA rule book, you will see that there is a specific rule regarding when the pitcher does not come set which overrides 8.05i in this specific circumstance. That rule is 8.08.E.13 and it reads:
8.08.E If there is a runner, or runners on base, it is a balk when:
The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop.
Rule 8.08.E.13 Penalty: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one (1) base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first (1st) on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit
batter, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one (1) base, in which case the play
proceeds without reference to the balk.
We had this one come up last year in a USSSA tournament. The umpire ruled incorrectly that it was a dead ball and promised to throw me out of the game if I said one more word when I attempted to appeal the call. It ended up costing us a run and we lost that game by 1 run. I went home, printed out the USSSA rules and brought it back to show the umpire the next day. He and the tournament director apologized for the incorrect call and agreed that the run should have been allowed. Obviously, there was no way to correct the mistake but hopefully that umpire now knows the difference.
|
| moss21 |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 15:46:12
I thiks that USSSA use the delay balk rule witch means that the ball is dead unlees the batter puts it in play in his favor |
| tater77bug |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 15:44:49
USSSA = DEAD BALL.... |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 14:55:15
ron,
It depends on whether you are using USSSA specified rule, which I noted above and IS a dead ball and runners advance 1 base, or whether the tournament uses a "Tournamement specific rule" to go by MLB balk rule, which is still a live play.
Depends on the tournament. It is something that is typically talked about during the umpires conference with the coaches at home plate before the game. |
| ronicard |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 12:42:07
Balk is absolutely NOT a dead ball. Look at highcheese's post and you will see the correct ruling. If play continues and all runners reach the next base safely, the balk becomes null and void.
Think about it like this: Bases are loaded. Pitcher doesn't come completely set and the umpire raises his hands and calls balk as the pitch is being delivered. The batter hits a grand slam out of the park. Would you really want to penalize the offensive team when the whole purpose of a balk is to penalize the pitcher for not doing something correctly?
In essence, a balk in that situation is like an offsides play in football when no contact is made. It's essentially a free play. If everyone reaches safe, you take the hit; otherwise, you take the balk. |
| tater77bug |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 08:59:13
Balk is a dead ball...runners advance one base....SS |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 17:28:05
Per Rule 8.05I The ball is dead and runners advance 1 base.
Now, some tournaments will use the "MLB" rule for balks, which means the ball is live and the batter gets the ball in play. Now if he hits a fly ball to CF, he is still out, but the runner advances one base because of the balk. If the batter gets a double to the fence, and scores the runner, he chooses to keep that as it is better than the balk.
If he takes the pitch for a strike, it's still a strike, but the runner advances for the balk. |
| highcheese |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 17:10:32
USSA:
8.08.E.13 The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop.
Rule 8.08.E.13 Penalty: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one (1) base without
liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first (1st) on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit
batter, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one (1) base, in which case the play
proceeds without reference to the balk.
Approved Ruling: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate,
a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
Approved Ruling: A runner who misses the first (1st) base to which he is advancing and who is
called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one (1) base for the purpose of this
rule.
High School: Balk: Ball immediately dead
Pros: If balk is followed by a pitch, play continues. If all runners including the batter-runner advance at least one base, balk is nullified, runners liable to be put out. If there is a balk to a base and ball is thrown to the base, ball remains alive. If runner from first advances to second and continues to third while missing second, he is out on appeal.
Have to really make sure which set of rules you are playing by and keep a copy handy in tournaments. in your circumstance the play continues until it is over by standard interpretations, ala double and runs score, next bstter. Need to always check with umps prior to game if they know what set of rules we are playing by too. Most umps will usually default to high scholl for travel ball tourneys unless otherwise advised. A good crew will usually check and also have instruction from head umpire too. |
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