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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| baseball99 |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 13:18:03
Without naming players, which team in 10u Major do you think has the best pitching staff? Or, which team has the best pitcher in 10u Major? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rocky |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 09:10:36
"stretch before throwing" A big question should you stretch before you throw? Depends on what type of stretching. Static stretching (or stretching in place) should not be done prior to pitching because it has been proven to actually reduce performance and increase the risk of injury. It also has been proven to reduce velocity in pitchers. A pitcher's shoulder is already the most loose joint in the body. And for a pitcher having a shoulder that is too loose can lead to injury. There is a fine line between being too loose or too tight.
Yes, pitchers do require flexibility. However, any full body static stretching should only be done after competition. |
| clubhousebaseball1 |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 23:36:16
I do not think baseball99 read highcheeses comments. You can find an expert to tell you the stimulus package is a great plan. If you want to hear what he has to say, than you will be deaf to real advice. Maybe we dummies have no doctorate degree, but I have been around baseball my whole life and have seen more than my fair share of players hurt from overstressed arms. I really do not need a PHD to see a boy plays ball at 10, a boy throws junk and stressful pitching at 10, a boy is out for months with arm problems. The math is easy.
The real bottom line is if you have a boy on your team that is throwing junk at 10 years old, you owe it to him to stop it. If he is your son and you are allowing it, you should be ashamed. If he is not good enough to pitch with just a fastball and a change up, maybe you should focus him on another position. We all do not produce pitchers. Too many of these parents and coaches are trying to make there sons do what they could not do themselves. I will say it again, if he is throwing junk pitches, he may be considered a good pitcher now, but will not be when it counts. So, keep fishing for the best 10 year old pitcher out there. It will change in a couple of yers if you picked someone throwing this stuff. I prefer to pick boys that look long term and are smarter than what I am hearing from some of the people on this panel. |
| highcheese |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 22:08:45
Baseball99 has a good point and it relates to my earlier post on getting qualified expert help. Parenta and coaches need to know what they know and really question what they think they know. This is all for the safety of the kids, and the ability to pass on real information they can use for a life time inside and outside of baseball. Seeking expert advice may cost upfront but it will pay dividends later. I never knew how difficult it was to coach until I started coaching 5 and 6 yr old little guys and trying to pass on 35+years of experience and knowledge. Here is a little history why I am so passionate that people take this pitching thing seriously. i am working on 45 yrs old now and started pitching when I was 9 in little league. Continued through Older leagues, allstar teams, high school and college. Continued competitive fastpitch, 18 and over baseball leagues and 30 and over leagues. Sorry, but I love the game with a stick and a ball and a glove. I had always been a big guy who threw hard, had a decent change and a nice curve. i always warmed up properly, etc and took care of my arm like Baseball99 was alluding too. Never had an arm problem in my life, no rotator cuff problems etc.. must have been blessed, maybe so. Here is where I got stupid - took a little more than a year off in the mid to late 90's, do a little business, get married have some kids, stuff like that. i was talked into coming back and playing baseball again, great, love it, lets do it. Started right back in like having never missed a step. Ah, couple games into the season started to have a little soreness in the arm - hey old age right, a little Alleve and away we go. Got to the fourth inning of a game, threw a cut fast ball in on a guys hands - nope, ball went into visitors dugout - I snapped my humerous bone in half - helpless feeling when you cannot feel your arm or move it.TOAST. Did the ole Dave Dravecky thing.
Having sout out the best doctors and surgeons etc... to see what went wrong, is there cancer, etc... Nope. Come to find out the bone density I had all those years throwing had decreased tremendously when I took the time off. The amount of torgue your muscles can put on the bones when throwing is tremendous, and add to that a cutting fast ball that had a little twist to it, ala snap in half in a split second. I went through all the motion studies with experts and every one of them asked me what kind of pitches I was throwing. Everytime the curveball came up there was some shaking of the heads. The bone density i had at the time was equated back to teen years but with the muscle structure of a fit 30 something. Remember what they say "use it or loose it".
Take this wonderful example and think about kids, muscles, growth plates, curveballs, large pitch counts etc... the research and conversations I had with experts on kids and motion studies where incredible. This is part of my passion for the subject. Protect them, you are the adults. Train them, you are the adults. Love them, you are the adults. There will come a time when you cannot, but do all you can when you can. |
| baseball99 |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 14:08:27
Throwing curves the "old fashioned way" will definitely cause problems for adults as well as kids. Though many of the folks on this forum profess to be "experts" and possess a lot of knowledge, most of them do not. Best advice I have received is to focus on good mechanics, stretch before throwing, do long toss and limit pitch counts. This advice was from an expert in the field of sports medicine.
Bottom line, this forum is enjoyable to read but if you are looking for advice from this forum regarding your child's safety and well being, you are looking in the wrong place. Do yourself a favor and seek advice from an expert when someone tries to teach your son a pitch you are not familiar with. If the expert says that the pitch will hurt his arm, put a stop to it. |
| highcheese |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 11:49:01
Allstar - excellent observation. Please point this out to the parents and coaches. Parents and coaches need to also keep the lines of communication open with there little guys and ask them if their arm hurts and also make sure the kid knows he will not get in trouble if he says his arm hurts. If there is any hint of this LISTEN. Do not run him out to shortstop to take 75 grounders, turn some double plays, throw 50 in from left field to 2nd, third and home. Yes let him practice but put the balls in a bucket. If there is pain there is usually a reason for it, DEAL with it. To Allstars point again - what you do with your pitchers in between weekend tournaments is critical too. You keep your guys on a pitch count and watch their mechanics over the weekend then the next week of practice should be ok. i believe in stretching at least the next day, some lighter throwing and keeping things loose for the next couple of days. For the guy who threw way to much over the weekend, exhausted his muscles, threw some junk, the recooperation time is significantly more. Here is an excellent coaching point - with all our field time limited etc... we try to get as much done in the short time we have with our kids - it is incredibily tough to practice pitching, catching, infield and outfield and situational play when you have guys with sore arms or limited motion. So..... stop a component of the problem you can - sore arms - and i gurantee you will end up with a better team over all. Keep them all playing and not on the DL. |
| clubhousebaseball1 |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 10:11:35
I agree with highcheese. If I was not concerned about the kids, I would simply let these so called coaches ruin there arms. In time the pool for good players later in life will help others that would normally not have a chance to play get a shot. With that being said, I know most kids playing at this level love the game. They are also being coached by men with such an apparent ego problem they do whatever it takes to win. Parents, protect your child and if a coach demands things of your son you are not comfortable with, CHANGE TEAMS!!!!
My take on all this is those parents allowing their kids to pitch like this at their young ages could never do it themselves. Look at Tom Glavine and other pro pitchers philosophy. I have never heard any of them say it is good to throw a curve before they can shave. Not one!
A boy is going to do whatever is asked of him because he is a "team player". Be smart enough to look at a coach and say we do not want him throwing anything close to resembling a curve ball. If he is a good coach, he will focus on the fastball and out of this world change up. I would bet your team will be just as successful. Even holding it with "special grips" that are not a normal position for a fastball is stressing an arm. It is far more damaging on children that do not have the bone or ligament strength at their young ages.
Highcheese and others, we can only try and show insight and bring awareness to this, the only way to correct it is to get these coaches away from our kids. That will have to be left to the parents as this message board will not do it. As highcheese eluded to, I am not sure how many of these teams have a surgeon on staff that can take liability for making such a comment. My question is how many surgeons have their kids pitching at this level? |
| AllStar |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 08:14:47
My son's team has a couple of pitchers who throw a lot of breaking stuff and a couple who throw fastballs and change ups exclusively. After a tournament weekend, the boys who throw fastballs and change ups can throw normally on Monday. It's at least Wednesday for the kids that throw a lot of different pitches.
The kids with the breaking stuff have the most strikeouts. And walks. And pitches per inning. There is not a big difference in ERA.
Personally, I don't think it's worth it. |
| Hawkeye |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 07:37:21
I don't know specifically why "Gwinnett" teams would be more apt to protect arms than other teams, but I agree with clubhouse that do not underestimate the damage that can be done at this age.
There is one now 11u powerhouse team in Cobb that is currently falling apart due to their pitchers being shut down for the season or longer. These kids were not throwing hooks, they were just over-throwing. It's hard to believe Tommy-John's name come up from a doctor for an 11YO, but it has happened. Their parents have recently woken up and are moving their kids to other teams.
Coaches - you have to keep your egos in check and enforce pitch count limits. You must keep your pitches to two types at this age: fastball & straight change. Unless you have an orthopedic surgeon on your staff who specializes in shoulders and elbows, you are just playing with fire. |
| highcheese |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 01:22:36
If any of you think throwing curveballs pre puberty is ok then I say you are nuts. Absolutely nuts. The medical data proves it. Sure you can find a doctor or two to say it is ok. I can also find an economist or two to say the stimulus package is ok too. I have posted several strong points on little kids pitching on here before and hopefully some of you have listened. Each week my point is proven by a little kid being out of baseball. Two weeks ago two 11u kids i know who are great pitchers out for at least 12 months each - get it - out of baseball, no other positions played, no Dhing, nothing, out of baseball. Who knows what will be the long term outcome here. To prove my point again, sorry to say this, but it is a fact, learned this this weekend, another 11u kid I know is done with two breaks in his growth plate, in his growth plate! To prove the point further the coach, dad and a doctor said it was ok for this kid to throw curveballs as his out pitch and a third pitch after his fastball and change. Bull!@#$, do not do it. Also ruined the kid for wrestling, football and basketball which many of our kids play. When the facts are in your face and you still let a little kid throw a curveball???? Here is another fact for you - take a look at a kids hand - not very big is it - a very small percentage of kids can even hold a baseball correctly to throw a curve. Guess what he is going to do to compensate - crank the heck out of his wrist, elbow, and shoulder to get it to curve. Not a good thing! A good change up thrown properly - and if taught properly - can drop and tail with out the stress on the arm. When the kid can throw it for a strike and also place it, then it becomes a great change. Instead of relying on the low percentage of an out pitch with a curve ball that will damage an arm, try something like this - low and away change for a strike followed by a 45 footer or a 49 footer straight change. Oh my goodness, the kid SWUNG at it! Imagine that. Teach your kids to pitch first and then the junk when he is shaving. If any of you coaches do not know how to teach pitching then find someone to help you out, please. If any of you parents want little Jimmy to be a pitcher and you feel he is not getting quality instruction from his coaches, then find a qualified instructor. Be smart out there, save a kids ability to PLAY anything he wants, do not sacrifice a future for being ingnorant or stubborn or unwilling to seek proper answers. Hopefully each week I will not have to update you folks on another kid that is toast. |
| clubhousebaseball1 |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 10:02:52
So lets go a little further on this topic. Many boys threw a curve ball and nobody apparently thought it would hurt these young arms. Guess what, we found out it hurt these young arms. I believe we are going to see in a few years from now, all these boys gripping it a certain way and throwing these "hooks" are going to find out it is hurting there arms. I hope the coaches and parents who allow it watch their childs glory days now, they will be limited. I still believe, and none of you will change my mind, these boys are "stressing their arms unnecessarily at a young age. I will tell you from what I can see in the Mill Creek cluster they will be the strongest teams in the future because those coaches look down on teams who throw curves.
Baseball99, I will NEVER say a boy that I know throws a hook no matter what you call is the best. I put more emphasis on a boy and his coaches that I know are smart enough to do it for the long term as the best pitchers. I like the teams that can play on a good pitcher throwing fast balls and change ups with a good defense and can hit the ball well. All aspects of the game not just a pitcher who throws hard and has a curve. He must not throw that hard if he has to curve the ball to get boys out at 10. Wake up coaches. The boy is 10, if he loves the game, let him enjoy it for years. I talk to many youth coaches who say I could have gone further but threw my arm out too early. I would guess there are a few of you out there. Why do it to these young kids. If you have a boy who you do not like seeing throwing this mess, take them to Gwinnett County, we will protect their arms. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 19:46:57
The more I read the more confused I get. Is there a clear cut answer to this simple question. Over my many years around the sport I have always heard that the kids should not begin throwing curve balls until at least high school. Just to me sure I think I will follow this advice. |
| ronicard |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 11:17:18
I pitched in college and ended up tearing my rotator cuff. I was seen at Hughston Clinic in Columbus, GA by the orthopedic surgeon who was the guy who did the the knee surgery on William Andrews when he was with the Falcons.
When he walked into the room to see me, he had just left the room of a 14 year old who was experiencing elbow problems and he made mention that the young man admitted to throwing mainly curve balls, starting at age 10, because that made him a more effective hitter. As he was telling me about my rotator cuff tear, I asked him if throwing curveballs was a reason for me having shoulder problems. He asked when I started throwing curves and I said, "14, but I was still predominately fastballs until a junior in high school." He then went into a 5 minute diatribe that can be essentially summed up as this:
- He thinks that anyone who takes a hard line on curve balls at any age is wrong.
- He thinks that anyone who lets young men throw a LOT of curves at any age PRIOR TO PUBERTY is stupid.
- He was 100% convinced that the reason for my shoulder problems was due to the number of innings I had thrown over the course of the years.
- He made the argument, "Don't you think you might have been better off if you threw 3 - 5 curve balls a game, if those curve balls were thrown as "out pitches" and saved you an additional 15 - 25 pitches per game?"
As a coach of an 11U team, I was of the opinion that I was NEVER going to let my kids throw curves. I consulted with 3 pediatricians and 1 orthopedic surgeon and all 4 gave me different answers. The orthopedic surgeon laughed when I told him this and said, "That's why it's called PRACTICING medicine." But all 4 bought off on the plan I proposed. And this is it:
- My players are taught to throw an effective curve ball. The ones who master it are allowed to throw between 4 - 8 curves per day when they are on the mound pitching and ONLY then. Any player caught throwing a curve (even with a Wiffle ball in a Wiffle ball game) is suspended from play for 2 games. We also teach changeups and try to keep the pitch counts to a reasonable limit to limit shoulder AND elbow issues. But to say that you don't allow your players to throw curves is, in my opinion, potentially more damaging to the longevity of that pitcher's arm than throwing a small # of curves as out pitches.
Just my opinion, but if someone of you comes up to me to protest my players throwing curves, this is the answer you're going to get. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 19:52:16
Thanks Coach.
I know we played Midway and we didn't see anyone throwing a curve and that is why I say you shouldn't automatically believe all you read in these posts. We have the same problem with one of pitchers that doesn't throw so hard but he has a wicked change of speed that some mistake for a curve but if you watch closely you will see that he does not snap his wrist. |
| coachcj12 |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 19:23:50
As a coach on the midway team, i can assure you we don't teach curveballs to 10 year olds. It is his change, and their is no wrist rotation or elbow snap in any of our kids. Good luck this season!! |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/01/2009 : 15:29:12
We as parents and coaches should police this ourselves. It is possible to tell any coach in a polite way that studies show that any kid throwing the curve ball before 13U is increasing the kids chance of a arm injury. |
| BBall123 |
Posted - 03/01/2009 : 08:48:56
Did anyone see the news this morning? Resurgens Orthopedic and the Braves have gotten together and made a free DVD about youth pitching.
Smoltz and Glavine and the Braves head trainer were on the news talking about it and both those guys did NOT throw a breaking ball till high school. And the trainer said that many of the arm injuries that they deal with today were caused when the guy was under 13 years old from kids throwing breaking balls.
They flat out said ITS WRONG DONT DO IT TO YOUR KID!
the rule is , if you are to young too shave you are too young to throw junk!
wake up people! if you are allowing it to happen you are wrong! |
| bmoser |
Posted - 02/28/2009 : 09:10:02
Those boys are spread all over Gods Green Earth, plus there are now 2 Mill Creek teams. They tried, but they couldn't keep it all together. I don't see either Mill Creek team being as good as they were last year now that its been diluted. Too bad. That 9U team beat the Bay Bombers...TWICE last year, ended up being rated 4th in GA well ahead of any East Cobb teams.
Their 11's and 12's are special too. Both top 10's. While this is a feeder team/park, its the largest one I know of in the ATL metro. I think 7 Elementary schools feed into it, so ~7,000 kids. I don't care what the sport is, boys or girls, any age group, with a pool that large, and a darned good org behind them, and nice facilities, they are a force to be reckoned with. Mill Creek High will be #1 in 3-4 years and stay that way for a while unless they build another High School nearby.
quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I was basing my reveiw on last year at nine.
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| 10 BB |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 22:34:36
Looks like the Yellow Jackets had them some Luck tonight! |
| bmoser |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 20:50:37
I'm sure he's talking about the Fall Mill Creek team that my son pitched for :)
quote:
Originally posted by baseball99
Are you talking about Millcreek's 9u team from last year or the current 10u team?
Best I saw:
Boynton
Redsox
Millcreek
6-4-3 SS early in season
Chili Dogs
Kennesaw
[/quote] |
| baseball99 |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 16:28:25
Are you talking about Millcreek's 9u team from last year or the current 10u team?
quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
Best I saw:
Boynton
Redsox
Millcreek
6-4-3 SS early in season
Chili Dogs
Kennesaw
|
| moss21 |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 16:22:12
We played the Gulf Coast Lighting this past weekend in Niceville Fla. and they had two big kids that threw the baseball very well. |
| greglomax |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 13:36:28
Simply working on hitting your spots will give you all the advantage you need as a pitcher at 10. If you can spot the fastball and slow the change-up down just a little and keep it low and away, using the same arm motion as the fastball, you can dominate at 10. |
| jscoda |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 13:29:38
Amen! baseballpapa...they need to watch how many pitches they are throwing as well. |
| Tball |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 21:19:58
Baseballpapa I agree.. if a team thinks it is great they have a pitcher that can throw a curve... good for them, too bad for the boy. At this age, a good fastball and a change-up is all they need.Anything else then it becomes about winning instead of just playing ball and what is best for the kids. |
| BBall123 |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 20:49:11
I think gregglomax is right on the money here. there is gonna be some surprises for sure |
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