| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TravelBaseBallMom |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 15:42:36
I have a question to all Travel Ball Parents ? My son played on a Travel Team this year. Several of the parents requested a Financial Statement and Team Stats, one parent was told that this team is ran as a dictatorship  and all finances were divided equally throughout each team member, and only members of management is prevee to a financial statement and team stats. (each parent was given their son's stats seperate) My son has played baseball on a recreational, allstar and travel level before, this is a new organization for us, are these normal request and responses when moving to the (Big League)? Please help coaches and parents..
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Pronate |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 13:50:23
Travelmom:
I'm not suggesting what you should do because, quite frankly, I don't know what I'd do.
But here's the deal with me, if a coach steals from a youth baseball team he's going to jail. If someone erroneously accuses a coach of stealing, she's going to jail. I'm comfortable you got yourself into a bad situation wth this team, but you have to be very careful when dealing with someone's integrity. There are plenty of bad but very honest coaches out there.
How much money did you pay to be on this team? How many games/practices did you have? What percentage of the time did your son play? What did the coach say about playing time?
I know these questions have nothing to do with whether the coach should open his books. He should. Perhaps, however, others can evaluate the return on your investment in this team. If the general concensus is that you got a fairly reasonable return on your investment, then I would probably lean toward letting the matter drop.
e |
| greglomax |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:29:53
I think it is perfectly within your right to ask a coach, prior to joining a team, what the expected budget per family will be. It may not be exactly known because it depends on the number of players, types of uniforms, exact # of tournaments, etc, but they should be able to give you an idea of what their past budgets were.
I also believe that it is within your right to want to have an idea as you are going through the season to know what your expenses are running compared to what you have paid/credited for. It helps alleviate the surprise "We need an additional $250 by next Monday to pay for XXXX expense."
I don't think that it is too much to ask.
Every team needs to have someone, not coaching, keep the finances. It is best to have an accountant or a lawyer, but not everyone is luck enough to have this resource. It is just a lot for a coach to manage along with the day to day operations. It also cuts down on the feeling like the coaching staff is hiding the expenses. |
| TravelBaseBallMom |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 16:30:10
Pronate
To answer your questions, (1) I always try to keep every experience positive in my sons eyes, as for me not so good. You asked did he get good instructions? the coach was ok intructionally, (2) ?'d playing time, less than most.(3) Did he play his position,never saw the position he has played for years.
When I said everyone didn't pay the say amount, quoute "I said we all has a set amount which was the same", others did more thinking any overages would go towards helping later expenses. No1 was assigned less some did more. The coach was not paid, he doesn't have a son on the team, all the assistants have sons. You also mentoned "As a possibility of giving the coach the benefit of the doubt", when 2 other children left the team, the other children same ones as before were going around telling the other child that the other 2 kids left "because their mom and dads could not afford to stay on the team." Guess that blew that thought out of the water.
So you are saying because my son is now at the level of travel I should not press the coach for financial statements ? I should just pay my money and be happy ?quote:
Originally posted by Pronate
Travelmom wrote:
I appreciate your response, I guess I never asked, it's something that has always been provided I took it for granted. I added more to my message, I would appreciate and add'l response if you don't mind. lQQking for help... Thx...[/b]
Travelmom:
The first question I always ask when I hear a story like this is ...How was your and your son'e experience with this team leaving aside the money paid? Did he get good instruction in your opinion? Did he get enough playing time? Did he play the position he thought he was going to play going into the season?
I am curious why you say everyone did not pay the same amount. Why would that be? Did people get assigned less because they were going to play less? Did the coach pay? or was he paid? Did the coach have a son on the team?
When you are trying to get youe son on a travel team it is totally understandable that you don't press the coach for financial statements.
Given that "several" parents asked for financial statements it sounds like you were not in a good situation.
As a possibility of giving the coach the benefit of the doubt, my son was on a travel team and at the farewell banquet the coach shared with my wife that a couple of parents did not pay. That really presents a terrible dilemma for the coach. I certainly wouldn't want a kid to get embarrassed so perhaps the coach was protecting people who, for whatever reason, could not pay the fees. As you know the economy has tumbled a bit since the start of the baseball season.
e
[/quote] |
| greglomax |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 13:49:28
I guess I have just been around people that have cared more about getting it right than padding the stats. If a team has an official score keeper, it needs to be someone that is trusted to make the right call on a play and is not offended when someone says "was that a hit or an error?" |
| SportsDad |
Posted - 07/30/2008 : 00:36:14
quote:
Originally posted by greglomax
Sportsdad,
The only thing I strongly disagree with you on is the reference that "stat books are usually cooked". You have just insulted and challenged the integrity of all the people that legitimately keep the books.
don't mean to insult the integrity of all people that "legitimately" keep the books, but errors are sometimes very subjective...Ball hit in the hole and the SS makes a great play on the ball, but overthrows a bang-bang play at first..hit or error? Outfielder gets a great jump on a ball and reaches up and backhands it..to bad the ball hits of the heal of his glove..hit or error? Lazy fly ball to center that the centerfielder just misplays...ball falls in...never touched his glove..oh stat guys says it's a hit, because his son or his buddy's son hit it...would garner to say at the age groups of 13U and below one out of every ten bats a kid gets on by error (maybe even more than that)if he puts the ball in play consistantly...that error turned into a hit raises that kids BA by 100 points...but even if it's only 2 out of 30...that raises the BA by 75 points... |
| coachdan06 |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 10:21:55
quote:
Originally posted by TravelBaseBallMom
quote:
Originally posted by coachdan06
quote:
Originally posted by SportsDad
If it's not open to everyone, there's a reason for it...and it's never a good one....Speaking from experience, and I'm sure there are plenty of parents with the same experience< I would never, ever play for a team that didn't have completly open books!!!
personal stats should not be displayed by team to other team members especially pre and early teens .
already enough poor examples out there by the pros looking out only for #1 which includes personal stats.
why would a young boy baseball player or parent need to know how he statiscally sizes up aganst a teammate - unless wanting a showdown with the coach .
might be fun to have for your own amazement and summary but no further than that.
if you cant see the finances theres some problems to worry about absolutely.is there anything else about this we dont know? sounds very unusual as its told.
CoachDan06
I am in agreement with you about team stats, my issue was all the coaches kids knew everyone elses stats on the team, and what you said happened, they went around bragging and talking down about other children. So if some people know why can't everyone ?
You asked is there anything else you don't know, well I have a doozey for ya, our headcoach flew his nephew down to start (and of course other children set the bench) the world series and flew him back. Now my question is what monies paid for that plane ticket ?
Mom : y'all have a bad situation .
Coach kids are allowed to demean the others , money is used to possibly favor relatives children. 
My suggestion : contact every memebr family of team and expose it investigate resolve it .
If money has been stolen or misused there are small claims courts that deal with these type of issues. |
| coachdan06 |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 10:16:10
quote:
Originally posted by SportsDad
Coachdan06...when I was referring to open books I only meant the finance part of it...as far as stats or team stats or any other of that, what I think is total nonsense, I don't even know why coaches keep them...I've seen stat books that depends a lot on who's keeping the stats...If a coach needs to look at his "stats" so he knows what kid can produce in a situation he's not a very knowledgable about his team. Most coaches "trot out the stat book" to justify why "junior isn't playing" and like I've said before "stat books are usually cooked" and if a coach of young boys is truly interested in improving all the kids on his team as opposed to "winning" than stats are useless...Bottom line is, if every parent can say to the coach at the end of the year "Thanks, you've made a positive impact on my son both in his ability to play the game and in the way you conducted yourself" than you are truly a coach...oh and by the way, my son has played for 2 different coaches, who could say that, and they were both very successful in the win/lose column too! oh and before I start to hear about the "value of stats",,,over a season of maybe 160 bats,,just when do you think the "stats" achieve satistical significance?...don't believe me...trot out the MLB "stats for the first 40 games and then compare them to the "year end" stats....I rest my case. )))
Sportsdad : I agree with ALL that you say here.
Some coaches will keep secret the stats so that a preferred or favorite player can bat ahead of a player who ,although is batting much better , hits behind the favorite.
There only fooling themselves the kids and parents see it
Cooked Stats ?  That can also be worked behind the scenes or if an expecially interested family member lik mom dad keeps the game book.
Maybe juniors glove error is scored a hit or maybe he gets on with an error but a hit helps the old batting average 
Its out there
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| raidermom |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 10:11:35
The scorebook should be handled by the coaching staff only. |
| lifeguard |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 09:34:44
Sportsdad, not all books are "cooked". There's nothing to be gained by that. Just like with the team, we conducted "tryouts" for those parents intersted in keeping the book. We then compared the parent book with the coach-kept book and chose the parent that would do the books. We are then able to get consistent scoring. We use the stats to show improvement or areas where improvement is needed. Sometimes it is a direct reflection of the batting order, at other times it gives the coaches a good look at just where focus needs to be in practice the next week. We do not broadcast the stats, but at the end of the season we will give out individual stats to show progression over the season. As Greg said, we're feeling insulted!!! |
| greglomax |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 23:41:49
Sportsdad,
The only thing I strongly disagree with you on is the reference that "stat books are usually cooked". You have just insulted and challenged the integrity of all the people that legitimately keep the books. |
| SportsDad |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 19:40:19
Coachdan06...when I was referring to open books I only meant the finance part of it...as far as stats or team stats or any other of that, what I think is total nonsense, I don't even know why coaches keep them...I've seen stat books that depends a lot on who's keeping the stats...If a coach needs to look at his "stats" so he knows what kid can produce in a situation he's not a very knowledgable about his team. Most coaches "trot out the stat book" to justify why "junior isn't playing" and like I've said before "stat books are usually cooked" and if a coach of young boys is truly interested in improving all the kids on his team as opposed to "winning" than stats are useless...Bottom line is, if every parent can say to the coach at the end of the year "Thanks, you've made a positive impact on my son both in his ability to play the game and in the way you conducted yourself" than you are truly a coach...oh and by the way, my son has played for 2 different coaches, who could say that, and they were both very successful in the win/lose column too! oh and before I start to hear about the "value of stats",,,over a season of maybe 160 bats,,just when do you think the "stats" achieve satistical significance?...don't believe me...trot out the MLB "stats for the first 40 games and then compare them to the "year end" stats....I rest my case. ))) |
| Pronate |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 19:27:21
Travelmom wrote:
I appreciate your response, I guess I never asked, it's something that has always been provided I took it for granted. I added more to my message, I would appreciate and add'l response if you don't mind. lQQking for help... Thx...[/quote]
Travelmom:
The first question I always ask when I hear a story like this is ...How was your and your son'e experience with this team leaving aside the money paid? Did he get good instruction in your opinion? Did he get enough playing time? Did he play the position he thought he was going to play going into the season?
I am curious why you say everyone did not pay the same amount. Why would that be? Did people get assigned less because they were going to play less? Did the coach pay? or was he paid? Did the coach have a son on the team?
When you are trying to get youe son on a travel team it is totally understandable that you don't press the coach for financial statements.
Given that "several" parents asked for financial statements it sounds like you were not in a good situation.
As a possibility of giving the coach the benefit of the doubt, my son was on a travel team and at the farewell banquet the coach shared with my wife that a couple of parents did not pay. That really presents a terrible dilemma for the coach. I certainly wouldn't want a kid to get embarrassed so perhaps the coach was protecting people who, for whatever reason, could not pay the fees. As you know the economy has tumbled a bit since the start of the baseball season.
e |
| TravelBaseBallMom |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 18:10:17
quote:
Originally posted by coachdan06
quote:
Originally posted by SportsDad
If it's not open to everyone, there's a reason for it...and it's never a good one....Speaking from experience, and I'm sure there are plenty of parents with the same experience< I would never, ever play for a team that didn't have completly open books!!!
personal stats should not be displayed by team to other team members especially pre and early teens .
already enough poor examples out there by the pros looking out only for #1 which includes personal stats.
why would a young boy baseball player or parent need to know how he statiscally sizes up aganst a teammate - unless wanting a showdown with the coach .
might be fun to have for your own amazement and summary but no further than that.
if you cant see the finances theres some problems to worry about absolutely.is there anything else about this we dont know? sounds very unusual as its told.
CoachDan06
I am in agreement with you about team stats, my issue was all the coaches kids knew everyone elses stats on the team, and what you said happened, they went around bragging and talking down about other children. So if some people know why can't everyone ?
You asked is there anything else you don't know, well I have a doozey for ya, our headcoach flew his nephew down to start (and of course other children set the bench) the world series and flew him back. Now my question is what monies paid for that plane ticket ? |
| Dr. Old School |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 15:31:05
As a coach, I would never give out team stats because they cause too much argument when evaluated by themselves. Most parents don't have the detailed knowledge to look at all the pieces together. That is not a knock on the parents, it's just a lot to learn and assimilate.
What is not always known by just looking at the stats is a player may be hitting well as much because where they are in the lineup as anything. Moving them up in the lineup may have resulted in a lowering of their batting order because of the types of pitches they would see, who they were hitting behind or in front of, etc. |
| jscoda |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 14:40:24
Giving out stats is nothing new. Every player wants to know his batting average. Most players and parents seek feedback. I hope everyone sees why the batting order is arranged a certain way or why their son bats in this spot or that spot. Of course other factors such as on base percentage, speed, power, RBIs, etc come into consideration. Pitching stats are good to share also. We never discuss errors in a public forum. Everyone makes them and nobody wants them. I like to know "my coach" looks at the numbers and just doesn't put players where he "feels" they should be. |
| Dr. Old School |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 14:36:58
Team sponsorship is an interesting thing. If someone comes to the head coach and says "I would like to give $500 toward your team for sponsorship." Then it should be divided evenly across all families but if someone goes out and does the work to get $500 to sponsor the team, why should they not be able to have offset their cost and not spread out across all parents. They were the ones that did the work.
It's kind of like hosting a tournament. If you have some parents that work 4 hrs over the weekend at the gate and you have others that work 30 hours working fields and running the tournament, should everyone get the same percentage? Doesn't seem quite fair.
I have had teams in the past that were 100% sponsored but it ended up being the same 4 getting the sponsors and doing all the work. There was no incentive for the others to do any work. |
| raidermom |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 13:04:01
Every fmaily should have access to the team ledger. Any good Manager or Head Coach should have this information ready and available. If he doesn't want to provide it, what does he have to hide? Sounds like your coach had a control issue. If everyone is contributing to the team by fundraising or sponsorships, don't we all own the team? Coaches should delegate the financial responsibility to a honest, knoweldgable person and stick to the coaching of the team. That's what we all are there for right? TEAM!!! |
| coachdan06 |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 12:06:26
quote:
Originally posted by SportsDad
If it's not open to everyone, there's a reason for it...and it's never a good one....Speaking from experience, and I'm sure there are plenty of parents with the same experience< I would never, ever play for a team that didn't have completly open books!!!
personal stats should not be displayed by team to other team members especially pre and early teens .
already enough poor examples out there by the pros looking out only for #1 which includes personal stats.
why would a young boy baseball player or parent need to know how he statiscally sizes up aganst a teammate - unless wanting a showdown with the coach .
might be fun to have for your own amazement and summary but no further than that.
if you cant see the finances theres some problems to worry about absolutely.is there anything else about this we dont know? sounds very unusual as its told. |
| SportsDad |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 11:32:18
If it's not open to everyone, there's a reason for it...and it's never a good one....Speaking from experience, and I'm sure there are plenty of parents with the same experience< I would never, ever play for a team that didn't have completly open books!!! |
| greglomax |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 10:58:34
Travebaseballmom,
you said "Everyone did not pay the same amount of monies, we all had a set amount, but we as a team had a golfing fundraiser and some paid sponsors. Some parents has more participation on raising add'l monies tha others. I feel HOODWINKED, BAMBOOZELED !"
There are two pieces to the budget:
1) what were your expenses? (uniform costs, portion of tournament fees, portion of equipment, portion of field or cage rental, etc)
2) what were your payments? (personal payment, individual sponsorship, team sponsorship, portion of team fundraiser, etc)
#1 should be relatively the same for each family. #2 may vary depending on whether people get individual sponsorships or other ways to offset payments.
All these things have to be taken into account when evaluating the finances.
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| RZENTKO |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 00:49:07
WELCOME TO TRAVEL BALL....IF THAT IS THE ONLY PROBLEM THEN YOU ARE QUITE LUCKY. ALL IS NEVER RIGHT ON THESE TEAMS...THE GRASS ISN'T ALWAYS GREENER EITHER...BEST GET AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE DONE IN ADVANCE OF JOINING OR PRIOR TO SEASON START. IF POSSIBLE...COMMUNICATION, INTEGRITY, STRUCTURE, HONESTY, FIRM BUT FAIR DISCIPLINE AND PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION WITH OUTSIDE AND/OR TEAM COACHES, REQUIRING PROPER FUNDAMENTALS AT TEAM AND INDIVIDUAL LEVELS AND HAVING TRUE GOOD WILL ARE SOME OF THE THINGS YOU HOPE TO SEE. 
AS PARENTS I BELIEVE IT IS MOST HARMFUL TO HOLD THINGS BACK AND/OR COMPLAIN AMONG YOURSELVES ABOUT PROBLEMS ON THE TEAM. GETTING REAL ISSUES OUT IN THE OPEN EARLY AND THE COACHES TELLING IT LIKE IT IS, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME ACCEPTING AND LEARNING FROM GOOD ADVICE THEY MAY OR MAY NOT RECEIVE CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN OVERALL CHEMISTRY. PRODUCTIVE MEETINGS WITH LIMITED OPEN COMMUNICATION WITH THE TEAM MANAGER WILL HELP ALL KEEP THINGS POSITIVE RATHER THAN STIRRING UP EMOTIONS ON THE SIDELINES WHICH WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER.
COACHES MUST BE CONSISTENT BUT FIRM TO READY THE KIDS FOR HIGH SCHOOL. THE PLAYERS NEED TO LEARN TO TAKE IT NOW RATHER THAN THE DIFFICULTIES AN UNEXPERIENCED ATHLETE MAY HAVE WHEN CONFRONTED WITH STERN REQUIREMENTS WITH ACCOUNTABILITY AT A "DO OR DIE" HIGHER LEVEL.
YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THOUGH THAT TRAVEL BALL IS ALSO PLAYING TO WIN. THE BOYS CAN SEE IMMEDIATELY IF THE MANAGER IS PUTTING HIS BEST EFFORT FORWARD IN THAT AREA. THIS IS SOMETIMES UNDER ESTIMATED AS TO THE EFFECT IT CAN HAVE ON THE PLAYERS.
NOW THAT I DIDN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTION MAYBE THERE IS SOME SENSE HERE. GOOD LUCK!!! IF IT WAS ME I WOULD ACCOUNT FOR EVERY CENT AND PUBLISH THE SPREADSHEET EVERY MONTH. |
| jscoda |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 23:21:44
If the expenses and income are not transparent then someone is hiding something.......thats a big hint. Something is wrong if you cannot openly show your expenses, income and if there is money left over, refund the money to the parents. What is so secret? Dictator, ha...more like ego maniac. |
| wildcats9596 |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 21:33:26
There should be total transparency. About 2 days after our 11U season our Business Manager published a full accounting including each family's contributions, contribution sources (sponsorship, fund-raising, etc.) and expenses.
As soon as he gets the last receipt(s), I would imagine this year's Business Manager will do the same. Both of these individuals likely have every receipt, deposit slip, etc.
You are entitled to, and should demand, full accounting.
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| TravelBaseBallMom |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 21:21:40
quote:
Originally posted by bb baseball
That is a fair request and should be provided. As a coach, I have a treasurer who handles the money end but I do the budget and he keeps a ledger statement and we sync up. Regardless of how it's structured internally, with the dollar amounts for travel teams these days, it should be provided.
Everyone did not pay the same amount of monies, we all had a set amount, but we as a team had a golfing fundraiser and some paid sponsors. Some parents has more participation on raising add'l monies tha others. I feel HOODWINKED, BAMBOOZELED !
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| Jr Longhorns |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 21:20:19
Always an open book and an itemized account to each parent for their portion.
Regarding stats - full set to the coaches and indv stats to the players.
If you want team stats, can keep a game book of your own. |
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