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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/15/2014 : 16:09:23
After 3 years of going to my grandsons team tournaments ran by Dizzy Dean, Triple Crown and now USAAA, I can see a need for a non profit organization to start running Tournaments. Hopefully they will make games go faster get more innings in, Better Fields just in General making everyone get more for all the money they contribute instead of going into somebodys pocket These kids deserve better and so do the Parents and Grandparents who pay for everything. Just thinking out loud..... I would like to say Dizzy Dean was best to me. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ryaajus |
Posted - 06/24/2014 : 12:05:16
The tournament directors don't rent the fields and they don't make any money off of the gate charges. The gate fees go to the school and/or facility that's hosting the games. That's their compensation for using the fields. |
| AllStar |
Posted - 06/24/2014 : 10:41:03
We ran a couple of tournaments as fundraisers. Not much margin there and that was with "free" labor, i.e. the players and coaches of the teams benefiting. I don't think anybody is getting rich running travel baseball tournaments.
When I was coaching I had a lot of field access and tried, without much success to get teams to come and play 3 team round robins on a Saturday and Sunday, or even just a mini tournament with 4-6 teams where they would just cover the costs of the umpires and baseballs and get 3-4 games. Never had much success. Everybody always wanted to just play in tournaments. |
| tbaillie2 |
Posted - 06/24/2014 : 08:42:32
I have no issue w/ someone making a buck honestly, even putting on a tournament. We take our kids to many places that are 'for profit', not sure why a travel baseball tournament is different. Now, the quality of fields, umpires, etc. has not started to see the 'trickle down' of the $ going to these events, but eventually they will (if the demand stays at it seems it will). Take Signature Park, not sure if they don't want to let other organizations use their fields or not...but a Triple Crown run tournament at a set of fields like those - folks should be happy to pay a bit of a "premium". |
| teddy41 |
Posted - 06/18/2014 : 19:28:51
uh dont pay and dont enter the ones you dont want to be in..pretty simple |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/18/2014 : 10:58:52
Yea that would be nice It would be nice if teams got together Like a Union, even then its hard to get people together to try to make things better. I was the President of an Aerospace Union and know first how hard I is to get people to stick together, LOL Now Im to Old for the Cause. |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 06/18/2014 : 08:04:26
quote:
Originally posted by gpawwarrior
This is a place we can vent, I think there are some besides me that feels they not getting Good value for their Dollar/ I don't care to change something that's working/ Just let emm know there are some that think they are getting greedy. That's all
And I agree with you, however, as you spend time reading these forums, you'll see a lot of venting and not much action. If you REALLY want change, vote with your wallet. You can search back and see the same complaints about umpires, facility conditions, tournament costs, etc., but has any group tried to stage a boycott of any organization, facility, etc.? Not to my knowledge. So you're likely to see someone else raise the exact same vent as you in the next year or so. Nothing will have changed between now and then. I do stand by my comment about how much work really goes into running tournaments. It's not eaay. |
| bballman |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 23:28:49
No problem gpawwarrior. Just trying to give another perspective. Enjoy your time with you kids/grand kids. It will be gone before you know it. As a grandfather, I'm sure you know that. |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 22:33:13
This is a place we can vent, I think there are some besides me that feels they not getting Good value for their Dollar/ I don't care to change something that's working/ Just let emm know there are some that think they are getting greedy. That's all |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 21:34:57
It's a hard job but these guys are well paid...
I don't think any one person deserves all the blame but the fact is the costs are rising and the quality is going down. |
| bballman |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 16:44:32
quote:
Originally posted by gpawwarrior
Whos to say that the tournament Directors don't go to the cheapest place they can rent. There are some good fields in Georgia well taken care of and some not so good.
Cobb County has some beautiful fields I never see them being used, I see the girls fast pitch using them.
And who's to say that the TDs tried to get those good fields and were turned down because it wasn't worth it to them to have to fix the wear and tear on the field from one of these tournaments? I've seen it happen. I've seen HS coaches flat out say - I'm not letting anyone use this field, it gets torn up.
I think there is a lot that goes into this that you are not seeing gpawarrior. And I agree with in the know. If you don't like how some of these tournaments are run, don't enter. Or put on your own tournaments all throughout the year and run them the way you think they should be run. Simple as that.
My son played travel ball from 12 to 18 and plays college now. Are there things I didn't like? Yep. Are there things that probably could have been done better in different tournaments? Yep. But overall, I think the experience was a good one and I would not change a thing about my son's baseball life. |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 15:36:26
It's really simple. Vote with your pocket book. With the exception of the first tournament a team ever enters, you know what to expect. You know what you get when you play at ECB. You know what to expect when you play in Forsyth. You know what to expect when you play in McDonough. Likewise, you know what to expect when you sign up for a USSSA, TC, Grand Slam, or locally hosted event. You know the rainout/refund policies in advance. You know the tournament formats and rules in advance. You know how they set pools in advance.
Simply put, you know what to expect. If you don't like an organization, location, etc., then don't enter tournaments that organization runs or in tournaments they host in locations you don't like.
If gpawarrior or anyone else wants to donate their time and energy hosting top level events for no compensation for their efforts, go for it. That's the beauty of this country. Competition should raise the level for all. Ultimately, if you can't swallow the price, then find another form of entertainment. There are plenty of opportunities to scrimmage, round robin, etc., if you want to set them up. If you want to play in tournaments, then accept the price of doing so. If you don't like it, don't enter. If you've figured out a better mousetrap, then put it in the marketplace and see if others agree.
Personally, I've run two tournaments as a team fundraiser. Both were extremely large tournaments and limited to a single age group where they were hosted on 5 fields. I easily worked over 120 hours coordinating, setting pools (including entertaining all the individual time slot requests), scoring, overseeing, scheduling, etc., for the three day tournament. It is exhausting to say the least. Would I take that on regularly for no profit, absolutely not. It's a lot of work. As bballman astutely pointed out, when you sneak your water past the guy taking your $5 at the gate, you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
It's a simple value proposition. If you see value in what you're spending your money, continue to do so. If you don't, then stop spending your money there. Ask K-Mart, free market economy works. |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 14:58:04
Whos to say that the tournament Directors don't go to the cheapest place they can rent. There are some good fields in Georgia well taken care of and some not so good.
Cobb County has some beautiful fields I never see them being used, I see the girls fast pitch using them. |
| mdschert |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 12:41:00
I think gpawwarrior is misplacing his grievance. The field conditions are the responsibility of the county or city not the tournament organizer. Granted, the organizer can command some threshold of standards. The field owner needs to put the rent money back into maintenance. |
| bballman |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 12:16:51
quote:
Originally posted by gpawwarrior
Bballman Im sure no one would do it for free, and Im sure there is a lot of work to put on one of these tournaments lots of it. But for up to income of $1200 to 1400 a team maybe even more if they get a share of concessions. I for one would like to see better fields, scoreboards that actually work restrooms that work and clean , better Umpires.
Just don't get greedy and not put back into whats making money for them.
Im mostly talking about 7,8 and 9 yr old that's all I know about so far.
I understand that, but is it even the tournament director's responsibility to do this? Should the tournament director have a reasonable expectation that when he rents a field that this will be taken care of by whoever he rented the field from? I don't think that USSSA or 3 Crown is responsible for cleaning the bathrooms at a facility. That is more than likely taken care of by the fields staff as part of the rental fee.
I know when we used to play at East Cobb, East Cobb was responsible for the grooming of the fields, emptying the trash, scoreboards, etc... That's part of what they were expected to do as part of being paid to rent the field. Maybe the TD should get on the host field staff more. But maybe participants should be complaining to who ever's field it is. If it is a Cobb County field that is being rented, complain to them, if it is a Forsyth County field, complain to them. TDs cannot do everything.
If they paid to rent the field and have the environment taken care of, they should not have to also pay to hire people at every field to take care of this. If they do, you will quickly see tournament fees go up. |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 11:25:41
Bballman Im sure no one would do it for free, and Im sure there is a lot of work to put on one of these tournaments lots of it. But for up to income of $1200 to 1400 a team maybe even more if they get a share of concessions. I for one would like to see better fields, scoreboards that actually work restrooms that work and clean , better Umpires.
Just don't get greedy and not put back into whats making money for them.
Im mostly talking about 7,8 and 9 yr old that's all I know about so far. |
| bballman |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 10:51:12
Do any of you know how much it actually costs to run a tournament? I don't, but I would imagine it's not cheap. I do know for Perfect Game tournaments, there is A LOT that goes into it including renting out over 30 fields, over 60 umpires being paid at any given time, at least one, many times two paid scouts at every game that write evaluations on every player and score every play of every game on game changer or iscore or whatever it is that they use, a staff of people at their headquarters that evaluate every evaluation done by on field personnel and than work on coming up with their rankings of players. I can go on and on, but there is a reason PG tournaments are more expensive.
Like I said, I don't know how expensive it is to run a tournament. Maybe prices are going up because local fields are charging more money. Maybe umpires are being paid more. Everyone blames the TDs for field conditions, but I am not even sure they are responsible for field maintenance and making sure the fields are taken care of. That all may be part of the price for renting the field - who they rent the fields from are responsible for taking care of that. If you are playing at a local HS field in a tournament, that HS is supposed to take care of field maintenance, so why is no one blaming them?
And who of you out there would do all this for free? Would you want to coordinate the schedules of 30 teams? Take requests of who can come when and what times they can't play? Field complaints about pool groups and how unfair they are because one team is playing too many good teams? Make calls to several different venues and negotiate rental with them? Contract with umpire groups and then field complaints when there are one or two bad umpires and deal with irate coaches? ALL FOR FREE because a profit should not be made off of youth baseball? I wouldn't do it out of the goodness of my heart. Maybe I have a Grinch heart, but that is a lot of work to do for nothing. Again, before you make comments about people becoming rich off baseball, maybe you should look into how much it actually costs to run these things. What are not only the actual costs you see, but what about administrative costs to run an organization like USSSA, 3 Crown or PG. What does it cost to upkeep the website? What about the people hired to actually accumulate and enter the information that is in the website? What about the overhead for the offices where these people work? Taxes etc... I'm not sure people think about all this stuff. Like it or not, it is a business. You want mom and pop to start running tournaments? You will get a mom and pop tournament. No national or regional rankings, no looking up on a website who beat who in all their regional or national tournaments, in the case of PG, no individual national rankings or projected college or pro prospects, no data bases for college recruiters and pro scouts to reference and find out more about a player. I could go on and on.
Just trying to give everyone some perspective about what goes on. I think it is a lot more than meets the initial eye test. |
| mdschert |
Posted - 06/17/2014 : 10:28:57
gpawwarrior - I am not affiliated in any way with baseball organizations except that my son has been the beneficiary of playing at these organized tournaments. I can say without any doubt that my son is a better baseball player because of organized travel ball. |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/16/2014 : 23:21:50
mdschert You sound like you may be a director in one of the organizations we talking about. I guess if it cost me money I would feel that way also.
Sounds like Im not the only jaded one as u call it
Goooooooooooo bpt Its the truth only the guilty don't want to hear it,
With gate fees that's about another $500 to $600 per team at least with parents and grandparents (Greed) |
| mdschert |
Posted - 06/16/2014 : 22:09:32
"nothing in return but ability to play other teams"
Really? Tournament companies provide a great value and baseball experience. Sorry you are so jaded to feel that you are being taken advantage of. It's great you are attending your grandson's games, I am sure he really appreciates it. |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/16/2014 : 17:30:44
I don't know how much money is being made by Directors of PG, TC , USAAA but ill bet I could live well off of it. Kids sports to me should not be for profit, It puts us in Same boat as Colleges getting rich off its Student Athletics. Whats so bad is they getting Greedier and greedier.
These kids work their butts off getting contributions from whom ever and most is spent for over priced tournaments which offer nothing in return but ability to play other teams.
I don't mean to get on a soap box,, But I don't like being taken advantage of. |
| wareagle |
Posted - 06/16/2014 : 10:28:49
I agree with Spartan. I do not mind anyone making a profit for their time. However, the facilities, etc are subpar at times. There should be some way for the tournament directors, counties, and/or organizations to at least put a little of this money back into improving fields, building more batting cages, fixing bathrooms and scoreboards.
In our county, the fields are being used almost every weekend, the fields badly need dirt added and laser grading infields. It would benefit the directors and the county to invest back in the fields. The county is basically getting $100 per field per day which probably only covers the electricity and cutting the grass, while the directors/etc make thousands. I don't mind the increases in parking fees etc if there is some added benefit. there should be some way to set aside a certain amount per team or per person to be invested directly back into the facilities. |
| mdschert |
Posted - 06/16/2014 : 10:02:43
Thank goodness for tournament directors and companies that create these tournaments. Without them our sons would not get the top competitive games they deserve. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 06/16/2014 : 00:04:42
The tournament directors have **** sure gotten as greedy as can possibly be. Higher entry fees, higher gate fees and less service...lower quality fields and umpire competency is at an all time low as well. |
| gpawwarrior |
Posted - 06/15/2014 : 19:32:21
PG makes the money off the tournaments and just pays rent on the fields and I would think PG makes plenty, The fields can only survive being rented by different organizations . Fields will survive if anyone puts on the tournaments. Im just tired of paying high entry fees and high gate fees both. But I still go to games just don't like situation.
I would much rather play a local club tournament where the money goes to the team putting on the tournament to use for their equipment and needs. That make more sense to me |
| mdschert |
Posted - 06/15/2014 : 17:48:30
Sorry not buying the nonprofit angle. Free markets and incentives create true innovation and service. Do you think the new PG fields in Cartersville would be possible as a nonprofit? |
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