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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| grandDad |
Posted - 04/27/2013 : 13:00:52
I see a lot of hitting "coaches" and their students working but I wonder if it really is a hitting lesson. The swing takes less than 2 seconds from stride, toe touch to contact. How can these coaches throw a pitch and see/analyze the swing at the same time? If they are using another to pitch maybe I can see them evaluating the swing.
So for those who do not use another to pitch or use video is it really a hitting lesson or paid BP with some standard hitting cues? "fast hands", "inside to the ball", "level swing", "full extension", "knob to the ball", etc. Does the average 11u player know how to decipher these cues and apply them to the swing?
The same could be said to pitching coaches. Are they looking at the player mechanics or the ball as it is coming at them at 50+ mph? They can't be doing both. So is this just a paid bull pen session?
Thoughts? |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PowerOfDixieland |
Posted - 09/10/2013 : 14:10:50
quote:
Originally posted by Jack-of-Diamonds
It's amazing to see him call out "0h & 2, no outs, runner on 1st" in the midst of releasing a pitch and watch the advanced students automatically smack a hit & run grounder up the right side! Now, that's "next level" baseball!
I'm not doubting your guy is a good coach, but it's never going to be a surprise what the situation is when the batter steps in the box. I would suggest that "next level" is the mental aspect of the pitcher-batter match up, not guess hitting, but what the pitcher is likely trying to do to get the hitter out (in a particular situation).
And to the OP's question, a guy who is worth his salt can see a lot of the specifics of what he's focusing on when he's throwing live BP. Video should be used at least occasionally (or taken by you the parent) to confirm what he's teaching. |
| cdeuett |
Posted - 09/09/2013 : 14:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by Jack-of-Diamonds
Son is a HS player now. We went to a number of different instructors coming up... some good... some just not the right fit.
But, we're now working with the best I've ever seen. And I've watched him work with everything from 8 y/o's up to college players. Mechanics, mechanics, mechanics with the younger hitters. "Next level" instruction with the older guys focuses on situational hitting, along with still continuously refining mechanics. We're in-betweeners just finishing up Freshman ball. So, he's teaching the situational hitting with explanations of the why's and wherefore's.
It's amazing to see him call out "0h & 2, no outs, runner on 1st" in the midst of releasing a pitch and watch the advanced students automatically smack a hit & run grounder up the right side! Now, that's "next level" baseball! And, I'm convinced without it even the best hitters are limiting their careers to "what coulda' been".
Do you mind sharing the contact information for your hitting coach? I'm trying to find a 'next level' hitting coach for my son? |
| Jack-of-Diamonds |
Posted - 05/08/2013 : 20:23:42
Son is a HS player now. We went to a number of different instructors coming up... some good... some just not the right fit.
But, we're now working with the best I've ever seen. And I've watched him work with everything from 8 y/o's up to college players. Mechanics, mechanics, mechanics with the younger hitters. "Next level" instruction with the older guys focuses on situational hitting, along with still continuously refining mechanics. We're in-betweeners just finishing up Freshman ball. So, he's teaching the situational hitting with explanations of the why's and wherefore's.
It's amazing to see him call out "0h & 2, no outs, runner on 1st" in the midst of releasing a pitch and watch the advanced students automatically smack a hit & run grounder up the right side! Now, that's "next level" baseball! And, I'm convinced without it even the best hitters are limiting their careers to "what coulda' been". |
| RACGOFAR |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 15:41:56
Late to the discussion, but in looking at Granddad's original post and question:
Lessons are good for both player and parent, assuming you have found a reputable instructor. Its important for young players to develop proper mechanics for hitting and pitching because its very hard to correct flaws once they have become embedded into their motion, and with pitching bad mechanics lead to injury. Having a regular lesson helps reinforce the good stuff. If you are a parent and don't know much about mechanics, then watching the lessons will help you a lot. And it will help you in the development of your son. The lessons generally focus on one or two things and then the player has to take that information and work on his own to make the adjustments.
As you and your player become more knowledgeable about the mechanics, you may find that you don't need weekly lessons. Having a good instructor is key. The least important qualification to me is whether they ever played college or pro ball. Mastering a skill and being able to teach a skill are two very different things. I would want to know if the instructor has ever coached kids my age and how long they've been doing it. Its much more challenging to give 8 year olds the proper instruction than high school age kids.
Been using video for 6 years now and I can't imagine any instructor or coach at any level not using it. If an instructor is not using video, then they are really at a disadvantage. We get more out of videotaping three cuts or three pitches, watching it a few times, then trying to make adjustments than simply throwing a bullpen or doing tee work nonstop.
As you can see from the comments here, there is a wide degree of opinion on what is and what is not proper mechanics. Picking a good instructor is kind of like buying diamonds. You don't really know what you are buying unless you know a lot about them. Once you have educated yourself on the fundamental mechanics of hitting and pitching, then you'll know if the instructor is worth it. There is a lot of conventional wisdom that is just plain wrong about mechanics and it gets passed down from one generation to the next without anyone really knowing why it is the right (or wrong) thing to do.
Watch the instructor give another kid a lesson. Is he making the exact same comments about your son? mechanics are not cookie cutter and every player has some variation, which is okay. Any good instructor should be able to explain why the mechanical fault he sees is wrong and what it causes the swing/pitch to do and what will happen if it is corrected. They will also ask the player how they did in games since the last lesson and get feedback on what the layer thinks they need to work on.
Where the pitch goes and where the ball is hit tells you quite a bit about the mechanics, so I would not be too tore up about the coach soft tossing. But I don't believe you can effectively instruct pitching if you are always catching your student. There are too many things you can't perceive from that far away. Unless you video!
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| SwingCoach |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 11:59:04
The swing has many components, but certainly the swing path is one of them.
No you do not swing down, no you do nto swing up, per se.
Ted Williams, Mike Epstein, et al promote the concept that you match your swing with the trajectory of the pitch. With 10" mounds, it is relatively flat but there is still a downward trajectory of the ball, and therefore an upward swing of the bat.
If you are swing level with the ground (incorrectly) you are simply trying to hit the ball at the intersection of the swing and path. Very hard to do consistently.
But there is SO MUCH MORE than just the swing path. Some have the correct path, but "sweep" the plate. Some have the correct path, but are "long" to the ball. For upper cut see Uggla, for long to the ball see Heyward. Most major leagers do not sweep.
The object is to keep the bat in the "hitting" zone for the longest possible intersection with the bat, but to do this with proper hip rotation, arm position, and swing speed possible. See Pujols.
Do batting lessons help? Yes, if they are working on the mechanics of the swing. And it really doesnt matter what happens before the swing - see Youkilis as long as you are in the correct position at contact. But keeing it simple for youth is paramount.
They help, but there are a LOT of bad instructors out there. Some are simply horrible. |
| Bigwhitevan |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 11:07:52
Gdad ---- I do not teach lessons, BUT I can see a lot with BP. When throwing BP, you mostly throw without having to think about the throw. You ARE watching the child. You know what you want the swing to look like. There has to be a picture in your head of what the desired swing looks like and then you are comparing that to what you are seeing. This can only be part of the equation though. Tee work is important to see the backside of a swing, the body lean, the hand spacing and the back leg drive. Then hopefully there is some video taken to study advanced kids so they can learn to minimize waste and restrictive motions. This is really all in an effort to create maximum bat speed at point of desired contact. Most kids dont need advanced teaching to create better hitting. Mostly they need a system they believe will work and the confidence that they will hit what they swing at. Both can be taught and supported with BP. So yes, it can be just paid BP AND it can be effective. Just like everything else in life, you have to figure what works best for your child.
Let me say to the level swing debate. Hitting behind the center of the ball is what most people advocate whether they talk about downward, level or slight uppercut swing. You can hit all kinds of hits with each swing. Bat to ball contact is what controls that and that is a hand eye coordination thing anyway. The major leagues are filled with all different kinds of swings. With more slow motion video available it has been found that most deep ball hitters swing similar. Slight uppercut with a strong whipping bat snap in the wrists. BUT these guys are usually the highest strike out and fly out totals too. Other hitters swing with a slightly more level swing that looks downward at full speed. These are looking to hit the ball hard and low, if they square one up it may go over. They both play in the MLB. So they both work. |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 13:13:11
Any off timed swing will result in a less than desired execution. If you are a little slow, or a little early, little high or a little low you are gonna get a pop up, foul ball or grounder. Im not saying a level swing is the only thing you need to hit a baseball im saying its one of the things you need to hit a ball. Best hits come from hitting a ball center mass, being under it or over it will cause undesirable results.
To put it in perspective, its such a hard thing to do that if as an adult you can be successful 3 out of 10 times over a career, you will be a hall of famer |
| agent21 |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 11:16:25
GDad
My son said his hitting instructor tweaks/makes adjustments to his swing, etc. based on the result (i.e., what the ball does after coming off of the bat). This must be effective (at least for an outstanding instructor) because my son has had and continues to have excellent results on the field after a lesson. |
| Newbie BB Mom |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 10:49:57
Both my son's paid hitting coach and paid pitching coach seem to pick one or two things to work on in a lesson and do a lot of explaining and then asking him to explain when things don't work right. The explanations are very precise and are designed to help him make adjustments when he needs to during games or to think more strategically during games. No "level swing," "head down," "finish your pitch," type generic stuff. I hear a lot of that from the dad-coaches on my son's travel team, though, which is why we supplement with paid lessons. |
| mar1dxt |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 09:19:13
My son uses an instructor out of ECB Academy. The lessons are tee work and front toss only. He does not pitch BP to him. His focus on the swing is from the ground up starting with proper footwork. After working for about two months with him, the result is a compact, balanced swing without a lot of wasted motion. Strikeouts are way down, quality at bats are way up. |
| SamQuick |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 22:09:36
I am not getting into the whole level swing debate ... although, I would opine, probably, if I did, that ... I agree with some of you.
My sons hitting coach actually does spend a lot of time picking problems and addressing the mechanics with ways other than full speed batting practice. That portion of a thirty minute or hour lesson is the minority of time. I appreciate the time spent on the tee and soft toss drills. By the time he gets to swinging on pitches, the instructor seems to be able to pitch and change focus to see whether my player is putting into practice the improvements of the lesson.
I would recommend him. |
| jacjacatk |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 19:31:28
quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
With downward trajectory on the ball coming from the pitchers mound an uppercutted swing will result in a pop up, a downward swing will result in a ground ball, a level swing through the zone will result in a line drive.
Actually, a level (to the ground) swing at a pitch dropping through the strike zone on the normal trajectory of baseball pitch will tend to result in both ground balls (when hitting the top of the ball) and pop-ups (when hitting the bottom of the ball). Because such a swing only briefly intercepts the path of the ball, it's quite difficult to hit a line drive with it (hitting through the center of the ball).
quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
"A swing path that matches the downward trajectory of the ball can make contact in the entire hitting zone." In order to do this you would basically have to start the swing with the bat barrel on the ground and bring it up at the same trajectory and you would hit a lot of pop-ups.
Completely untrue, matching the incoming plane of the pitch with a swing is relatively simple, and it's not a huge uppercut, it's in the neighborhood of 10 degrees (relative to level with the ground). And you don't have to take my word for it, see The Art of Hitting, by Ted Williams.
For swings that actually make contact, swinging level (relative to the ground) to slightly down will generate ground balls and pop ups. Swinging substantially down will get you mostly grounders. A bigger than necessary upward plane will get you flyballs generally, though pop-ups are also somewhat likely dependent on strength and severity of uppercut. Getting on plane with the ball well will limit pop-ups, and maximize line drives, with fly balls an ground balls happening on the off-center, but parallel plane, contact. |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 12:07:37
Tony Gwynn, one of the greatest hitters in baseball hit off of a tee every day. you cannot swing down on a ball on a tee nor attempt to uppercut it to get lift. Telling a child to have a level swing is not the end all of teaching a batter to hit, its just a piece. With downward trajectory on the ball coming from the pitchers mound an uppercutted swing will result in a pop up, a downward swing will result in a ground ball, a level swing through the zone will result in a line drive.
The level swing theory is based on the fact that a child has correct timing to hit the ball. When looking for hard solid contact, he optimum contact point for a batter is the center of the ball. With a ball falling downward, you want to maximize the potential that the bat will hit the ball, the center mass of the ball, which will drive it. Best case scenario your player hits the ball center mass and drives it into the gap, WORST case scenario they pop it up or ground it out, hopefully foul. With a downward swing, best case you can hope for a ground ball, worst case is a miss. With an uppercutted swing best case is a pop-up, worst case is a miss.
If you are unsure, take a look at your coach when he is hitting to the team in practice. When he wants to hit ground balls, he will swing in a downward arc to put the ball on the ground, when he wants to hit pop flys to the outfield he will swing in an upward arc. When he wants to practice fielding the ball on the hop, he will swing level and hit line drives.
"A swing path that matches the downward trajectory of the ball can make contact in the entire hitting zone." In order to do this you would basically have to start the swing with the bat barrel on the ground and bring it up at the same trajectory and you would hit a lot of pop-ups.
The reason level swings hit homeruns is because the pitcher supplies the energy and downward movement from the mound. The batters swing applies opposite energy to the downward traveling ball and sends the ball on an opposite exponential path. Thats why if a ball is coming down and you swing down, you get a ground ball, if you swing up you get a pop up and if you swing level you get a line drive with lift exponentially equal to that downward trajectory from the mound. |
| grandDad |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 10:32:04
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by grandDad
With the ball falling in a downward trajectory the ideal hitting area for a "level" swing is limited. That would be where the trajectory of the ball intersect with the level path of the bat. Too early, it's a pop up, too late and it's a ground ball in the dirt.
A swing path that matches the downward trajectory of the ball can make contact in the entire hitting zone.
Is this what you want the instructor to tell the 11 YO?
I would prefer that explanation over "swing level" to the 11U. At 11, they are capable of, and should be told the "why" they are doing something. Having the instructor explain this to the parent is more important so we can learn as well. It lets us know they understand the baseball swing.
"Swing level" should be removed as a cue to our players as soon as they leave T-ball. IMO
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| ABC_Baseball |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 10:16:22
My son has been getting hitting lessons for about 2 and a half years now. I consider it more than paid BP. His swing has come a long way. Regular adults waiting in line with their kids for the pitching machines and other dads at tryouts and games have commented on how good or "nice looking" his swing is. As long as you have a coach that knows what they are doing, its a good investment. I believe hitting lessons can turn a kid with some natural tools into a really good hitter, even at a young age.
This is only the first year at 8 year old travel ball, but I can see the results. The extra work outside of practice pays off. To me, the swing is the one things you don't want screwed up. While swings are different, they need to be fundamentally sound. I never played baseball, even at 8 my son has outgrown what I can show him. I leave the rest to a former MLB ball player. He can easily see if my son is "stepping out" or opening up too soon or if he is dropping his hands. A good coach will correct and explain what he means to your kid. As a dad, pay attention, you can always reinforce.
At my son's last pitching lesson, I believe I have gathered all of the points (5) that he needs to focus on to be successful. While he is on the mound, he has to figure it out. I always try to reiterate to him prior to practice.
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| AllStar |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 09:38:04
quote:
Originally posted by grandDad
With the ball falling in a downward trajectory the ideal hitting area for a "level" swing is limited. That would be where the trajectory of the ball intersect with the level path of the bat. Too early, it's a pop up, too late and it's a ground ball in the dirt.
A swing path that matches the downward trajectory of the ball can make contact in the entire hitting zone.
Is this what you want the instructor to tell the 11 YO? |
| grandDad |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 08:44:51
quote:
Originally posted by Ross
It is not a lesson if they are being told to swing level. Worst advice ever.
Agreed!
Nasty, just trying to understand what you mean my level swing so please do not take offense to these questions.
What part of the swing is level and what is it level to?
Are you saying the entire barrel should be level to the ground as it goes through the hitting zone or is it just the path of the barrel?
With the ball falling in a downward trajectory the ideal hitting area for a "level" swing is limited. That would be where the trajectory of the ball intersect with the level path of the bat. Too early, it's a pop up, too late and it's a ground ball in the dirt.
A swing path that matches the downward trajectory of the ball can make contact in the entire hitting zone.
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| nastycurve |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 01:28:41
A level swing is a swing that spends maximum time in the hitting zone for contact with the baseball. Many younger(and therefore inexperienced) players tend to chop down at the ball, or try to uppercut the ball to "hit a homerun" minimizing the time that the bat spends where it can make actual contact with the ball. A level swing is not bad advice if it is explained and executed properly. In order for a ballplayer to hit the ball to all fields, his bat will need to be in the hitting zone where it maximizes bat speed, power and contact. |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 04/28/2013 : 20:57:41
My son has been going to a hitting coach who works alone with no video for the past five years. He has developed for an eight year old rec player to a 13/14 year old majors batter. He has taught him a lot of the finer points of hitting and does a lot more then throwing BP. He will work on specific portions of the swing each week, then pull it all together at the end of them lesson. |
| Ross |
Posted - 04/28/2013 : 10:32:11
It is not a lesson if they are being told to swing level. Worst advice ever. |
| jay |
Posted - 04/27/2013 : 17:26:56
Speaking only for myself, I've seen the player swing before and I'm looking at something very specific...when I soft toss it too him/her. I find it very easy to get behing the screen (usually). When I gas it up it's just to see if the mechanics go south with the increase in velocity (which it usually does initially). |
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