| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| greenmonsta |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 15:46:33
8u CP, runner on first. Batter hits a line drive up the middle one hop to the center fielder. CF throws to 2nd base getting the force out. How do you score that for the batter? My first thought was FC but doesn’t fielder’s choice imply that the fielder could have got the batter but chose to get the runner? In this case the CF would never have thrown out the batter at first. Does the batter get credit for a hit or an out? |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bballman |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 12:42:43
quote:
Originally posted by baseballcrazymom
Pretty sure we had something similar happen but it was more involved. Bases loaded no outs floating line drive to center. Easily safe at first but runners had to freeze until ball hit the ground. Center fires a bullet straight home for the force out. Scored as FC.
In that same vein, ball is bunted to move runner to third. Pitcher fields the bunt on the first base line and flubs the toss to first. No longer SAC. It's ROE.
tellingson is partially right. If in the scorer's judgement the batter was trying to sacrifice the runner to 3rd, it is still a SAC, but since the batter reached first on an error, you have to account for that. Therefore, baseballcrazymom is also partially correct. The batter reached on an error, but is not charged with an at bat because he was trying to sacrifice. Fielder gets the error and if the batter comes around to score, it is an unearned run. |
| tellingson |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 11:34:42
quote:
Pretty sure we had something similar happen but it was more involved. Bases loaded no outs floating line drive to center. Easily safe at first but runners had to freeze until ball hit the ground. Center fires a bullet straight home for the force out. Scored as FC.
In that same vein, ball is bunted to move runner to third. Pitcher fields the bunt on the first base line and flubs the toss to first. No longer SAC. It's ROE.
A player is credited with a sacrifice even when an error occurs. It is a (statistical) no lose situation to be asked to sacrifice.
MLB rules:
10.08 Sacrifices
The official scorer shall:
(a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter was bunting exclusively for a base hit and not sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat;
Rule 10.08(a) Comment: In determining whether the batter had been sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner, the official scorer shall give the batter the benefit of the doubt. The official scorer shall consider the totality of the circumstances of the at-bat, including the inning, the number of outs and the score. |
| greenmonsta |
Posted - 07/05/2012 : 06:45:10
Stan-Thank you for the reference. I appreciate you taking the time to post that. |
| baseballcrazymom |
Posted - 07/04/2012 : 14:40:04
Pretty sure we had something similar happen but it was more involved. Bases loaded no outs floating line drive to center. Easily safe at first but runners had to freeze until ball hit the ground. Center fires a bullet straight home for the force out. Scored as FC.
In that same vein, ball is bunted to move runner to third. Pitcher fields the bunt on the first base line and flubs the toss to first. No longer SAC. It's ROE. |
| bballman |
Posted - 07/04/2012 : 12:16:03
In the scenario with a runner being hit by a batted ball, the ball becomes dead once it hits him. It is a different scenario than a force out. |
| stanlewis |
Posted - 07/04/2012 : 12:01:45
High School rules state (9.3.2) that "it is not a base hit if any runner is out on a force play caused by the batter advancing toward first base."
Major League rules state that (Rule 10.05)
The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(4) fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner and, in the scorer’s judgment, the batter-runner could have been put out at first base; or
Rule 10.05(b) Comment: Rule 10.05(b) shall not apply if the fielder merely looks toward or feints toward another base before attempting to make the putout at first base.
Force out. No base hit. |
| greenmonsta |
Posted - 07/04/2012 : 07:41:14
Can anyone provide a reference or any documentation that shows that it is a FC or a hit for that matter? Remove the 8u CP from the scenario if you like. Olde Tymer if part of the equation is the runner must advance to the next base in order for it to be a hit see this scenario where a hit occurs when the runner does not advance to the next base.
If a batted ball hits a runner, does it count as a hit?
Baseball rules on this matter go back over 100 years. In 1880, the rule was put in place that declared the runner out if hit by a batted ball in fair territory. It wasn't until 8 years later that the rule was added that the batter got credit for a hit when this happens.
The rule hasn't changed since then. The rule book says the batter is "awarded" first base. Your friend might be thinking that "awarded" doesn't necessarily mean he gets credit for a hit, but he does.
The rules on this are very, very confusing to read but here are some references if you're interested:
Rule 5.09(f), Rule 708(b), Rule 7.08(f), and Rule 7.09(l)
They can be found:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/ball_in_play_5.jsp
FWIW I’m not trying to calculate an 8 year olds batting average. I was asked the question and couldn’t come up with a definite answer. Just curious.
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| OldeTymer |
Posted - 07/03/2012 : 16:26:37
It's a FC. The runner from first never made it to second and, therefore, the hitter can't be credited with a hit. 8U or not, a similar scenario would be a pop up just outside the infield where the runner at 1B assumed the CF was going to catch it. After a long run, the CF misses it (no error) picks it up and flips it to 2B. Its a FC and not a hit.
Regardless of how you "feel" or it may make the kid "feel" , it's not a hit. |
| bballman |
Posted - 07/03/2012 : 14:54:38
It might not be reasonable, but it is what it is. If you are 8u as the OP is, who cares if you score it a hit. Stats don't mean anything anyway at that age. But if you're playing real baseball, it is a FC and not a hit - as unfair as it may seem. |
| a1prog |
Posted - 07/03/2012 : 13:54:17
This is ruled a hit and the out is recorded as 8-4. The CF did not have an option on the play. |
| ChinMusic |
Posted - 07/03/2012 : 10:03:05
I don't think I've ever scored a ball hit up the middle to CF as a FC. Doesn't seem reasonable. I got a hit. |
| AA17Dad |
Posted - 07/03/2012 : 09:24:03
This from the MLB Site
FIELDER'S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team#146;s indifference (undefended steal).
We played on a team a couple of falls ago that had a big hitter in the 4 hole that could really hit but was a very slow runner. The kid in the 5 hole could hardly hit a ball anywhere that the 4 hole hitter could not get hosed at second base. These were always scored a F/C discrediting what would have other wise been a hit for the 5 hole hitter. To add salt to the wound, the mother of the 4 hole hitter was quite vocal in letting everyone know her kid was leading the team in Batting Avg.and oblivious to all the F/C's being racked up behind him.
It is my believe that a F/C should only be scored if the defensive player actually had the choice of throwing out the hitter and instead choosing to throw out a different runner.
I " Think " that on balls leaving the infield, that if the fielder had no reasonable play at throwing out the hitter, it should be scored a hit for the hitter and an out on the throw for the runner going into second base. It's a judgement call for the scorer. The rule books leaves this one up for interpitation.
I will also add that at 8y/o Coach Pitch.....if the kid hits the ball and is safe at first....give it a hit. just my 2cents. |
| coachtony |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 19:38:50
It is 8u CP....who is looking at these stats? Really? If I am the coach...and if I am really looking at these stats....then I tell you to score it as a hit because I want to be able to tell who is hitting the ball hard up the middle and who is dribbling it to 1B. With that said, when I coached an 8U KP team it really did not matter to me what the stats said...I knew from watching the game who was batting where.
Trust me when I tell you that at that level the stats are more for Dad than the coach.
--T
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| excoach12 |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 17:08:48
Tougher than people would think.
MLB rules state the batter would get charged a time at bat and no hit if a pitcher, catcher or infielder had thrown out the runner going to second but it does not address an outfielder (or just fielder) throwing the kid out at 2B.
Being 8U CP I would score it a hit and let the kid feel good about himself.................. |
| bballman |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 17:04:43
It's a fielders choice. See this happen all the time at the older levels even with a ball that doesn't leave the infield. Batter hits ball up the middle, SS dives for the ball, would have NO opportunity to get the batter out. Flips the ball to the second baseman for the force at second, FC. Same with a ball hit deep in the hole to SS. Doesn't seem fair sometimes, but that's what it is. |
| christheump |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 16:50:10
Its an out. He doesnt get credited with a hit. Scoring 8-4, or 8-6 depending on who caught the ball at 2B. |
| SSBuckeye |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 16:27:11
FC for the batter, unfortunately. I would have no problem with a scorekeeper calling it a hit and then marking an out, because I hate when kids do the right things and don't get rewarded, but by the strict letter of the rule it is a fielder's choice. |
| T13 |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 16:26:38
its a fielders choice...our centerfielder has thrown many out at first....wait til they get older and everyone gets thrown out from right field (unless you hit a blooper :() |
