| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| gvblack |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 13:02:44
Read a recent rant over an umpires call on a check swing. The vent ended questioning whether or not some umpires really know the rules. The truth is, most do understand them better than 99% of coaches. I can say that as a current coach, and a former umpire. Being a former official, there is a boatload of things I learned in the training that allow me to understand how a crew runs a game. It also gives me a better relationship with the crews, and enables me to calm down some of the more hyper-mouthed parents.
What defines a "checked swing". The MLB Rule Book has no definition of a "checked" swing. It is the umpires job to call balls and strikes. The pitch is nothing until the umpire calls it. Umpire calls a ball, it is a ball. Umpire calls a strike, then it is a strike. Period. Did he swing? No matter what the coaches and crowd thinks, it only matters what the umpire determines. There is no definiation of swing. I'll leave you with this from Charlie Reliford, a MLB umpire:
Charlie Reliford: The check swing is probably the most misunderstood rule. Many of the problems occur when language is added to the rule that is not in the rulebook. We often hear phrases such as, “the batter broke his wrist,” “the bat crossed the plate,” “the bat crossed the foul line,” “the bat crossed the batter’s front leg,” and many others. None of these are definitions or phrases from the rulebook. While any of these acts may constitute a swing on one occasion, it is possible to demonstrate any of these acts in a fashion that would not be ruled a swing. An umpire’s job is to enforce the rule as written; quite simply, did he swing? There is no definition or description of a check swing or half-swing in the rulebook. From the Official Baseball Rules:
A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which—(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed; |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| 4bagger |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 20:20:48
Precisely. Good point. I have yet to see an umpire say he is conflicted about his call when he makes one.
He has firmly decided in his mind what his call will be.
Hence, no such thing as "tie goes to the runner" or "did he offer at the pitch". If the ump says yes, it's yes. If he says no, it's no. |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 16:20:19
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
quote:
Originally posted by 4bagger
People are still saying "the rule". Point is, there is no "rule" as to what constitutes a swing. It is umpires judgement if he offered at the pitch.
Bama, you are right that the runner is out if the ball beats him. You are saying "if it is a tie". There is no "tie". You won't find an umpire who says "the ball and runner made the bag at the same time therefore it is a tie and the runner is safe." The ump will interpret in his mind if the ball beat the runner or not and he never concludes it was a "tie" because that does not exist. If he calls out he has decided the ball won. If he says safe he has concluded the runner won.
For me it is similar to "you are innocent until proven guilty".
Burden of proof is on the defense....Ball must clearly beat the runner... not to say it can't be very close and be called out ...but umpire must be confident the ball won before runner is called out.
The same approach must be taken when trying to decide did the hitter offer at the pitch. Umpire must be clear cut and sure before he calls it a strike. |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 16:17:58
quote:
Originally posted by 4bagger
People are still saying "the rule". Point is, there is no "rule" as to what constitutes a swing. It is umpires judgement if he offered at the pitch.
Bama, you are right that the runner is out if the ball beats him. You are saying "if it is a tie". There is no "tie". You won't find an umpire who says "the ball and runner made the bag at the same time therefore it is a tie and the runner is safe." The ump will interpret in his mind if the ball beat the runner or not and he never concludes it was a "tie" because that does not exist. If he calls out he has decided the ball won. If he says safe he has concluded the runner won.
For me it is similar to "you are innocent until proven guilty".
Burden of proof is on the defense....Ball must clearly beat the runner... not to say it can't be very close and be called out ...but umpire must be confident the ball won before runner is called out.
|
| 4bagger |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 11:36:27
People are still saying "the rule". Point is, there is no "rule" as to what constitutes a swing. It is umpires judgement if he offered at the pitch.
Bama, you are right that the runner is out if the ball beats him. You are saying "if it is a tie". There is no "tie". You won't find an umpire who says "the ball and runner made the bag at the same time therefore it is a tie and the runner is safe." The ump will interpret in his mind if the ball beat the runner or not and he never concludes it was a "tie" because that does not exist. If he calls out he has decided the ball won. If he says safe he has concluded the runner won. |
| stafcoach8 |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 11:02:47
The rule for umpires and coaches to remember is: did the batter offer at the pitch? It does'nt matter how far the bat travels or if he broke the plane of the plate or anything to do with his wrist. Too many times you see a batter barely move the bat toward the plate and the result is a foul ball. It's still a foul ball no matter how far he went. Just my opiion. |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 10:01:04
quote:
Originally posted by coach0512
"Tie goes to the runner" is also an urban baseball myth. Not in the rule book. No such thing as a "tie". Runner is safe or out depending on what the ump says.
A runner is considered out when the ball beats the runner to the bag. If it is a tie then the ball did not beat the runner....hence the phrase "the tie goes to the runner". |
| hshuler |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 09:53:13
Will,
Based on what you have stated he is doing exactly what he should be doing. That's how he should start his swing so I wouldn't change a thing. "Check Swing" is not the "official" term but umps should still know the rule. The reason for my rant not the umpire's judgment but the explanation that he gave me.
HS |
| Steel-Will |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 08:19:37
I'm glad this topic has been initiated.
Beginning last fall, my son has been called for swinging at pitches in which he only begun to drive the knob of the bat towards the ball. He did nothing that could be considered "beginning" to break the wrist, the bat never crossed the plate, in front of the leg or past the foul line as he never released the barrel towards the ball.
If anything has been consistent with these 4 or 5 strike calls was that he began the motion of driving the knob of the bat towards the ball. On several occasions, he has turned his head away towards the 3b line as a righty but the knob was still pointing at the pitcher.
My concern is do I need to teach something different as to what's interpreted as an attempt at swinging at the ball? Is he being called for swinging as if he attempted to hit the ball with the knob of the bat? Has what we perceive to be a "check" swing generally in the past changed by some new rule?
What is going on here? I'm confused and the kid is definitely baffled. |
| nwgadad |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 17:45:17
Either way, half the fans will love the ump and half will hate him. |
| AllStar |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 17:13:48
What about appeals? There is a reason that appeals on lefties go to the third base ump and on righties to the first base ump.
We generally only have two umps. I had a lefty get rung up by an ump straddling the right field line beyond first (where he was supposed to be). That was about as nuts as I ever went as a coach.
a) he got it wrong. not even close.
b) there was no way he saw it well enough to tell if it HAD been close. which it wasn't. He should have declined to help.
Still makes me mad thinking about it 4 years later. I'm thinking blue wanted to go home.
He was one of those belligerent umps as well. Had gotten all worked up with one of the opposing assistant coaches about something earlier in the game, I can't remember what. |
| coach0512 |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 15:11:10
"Tie goes to the runner" is also an urban baseball myth. Not in the rule book. No such thing as a "tie". Runner is safe or out depending on what the ump says. |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 15:07:58
Still a judgment call, and when one person's judgment disagrees with another's an argument (discussion) will ensue. |
