| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| rippit |
Posted - 04/07/2012 : 18:00:12
Third weekend in a row. Playing 14u where every opposing team is using -10 non compliant bats. Our guys using -3 bbcor. Ridiculous. TDs don't care. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| christheump |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 08:31:15
quote:
Originally posted by F2202
@Christheump
Chris, you need to ask more than "are your players properly and legally equipped" to protect yourself against litigation. As well as the first question, I also ask, word for word, every plate meeting, "Are all the bats unaltered from the original manufacturers design and approved for play? Is all the equipment, including helmets, free of cracks and approved for play?"
It was on the front page of one of the NFHS publications. RAGOFFEAR what do you think about this? I would like to hear from a lawyer how well I'm covering myself and if there is a way I could ask these questions better.
I know I've worked hard for the little bit I have, and there's no way I'm going to lose it because I didn't cover my backside well enough when I could have.
I will certainly be adding that to my plate meeting rundown. |
| RACGOFAR |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 23:12:16
F2202.
If you are doing what your sanctioning organization says you are supposed to be doing, then it's not on you. My opinion is that the phrase "properly and legally equipped?" covers it all. "Properly" to me implies equipment that is unaltered and in good working order. "Legally" implies to me that all the equipment is in compliance with the rules.
When you ask that question, you can rely on the coaches' affirmative answer and then it's on them as it should be. You might Also check with your sanctioning body about liability insurance coverage. I would be surprised if there was no policy in place. It's very cheap to get an umbrella liability policy for yourself as added protection also. I've had one for years.
I could talk about the law all day, just like I could baseball. But my genral views here should not be relied upon as legael advice for anyone in particular. If you have specific questions about your specific situation, then contact me privately and I'll be glad to speak with you. |
| F2202 |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 20:55:24
@Christheump
Chris, you need to ask more than "are your players properly and legally equipped" to protect yourself against litigation. As well as the first question, I also ask, word for word, every plate meeting, "Are all the bats unaltered from the original manufacturers design and approved for play? Is all the equipment, including helmets, free of cracks and approved for play?"
It was on the front page of one of the NFHS publications. RAGOFFEAR what do you think about this? I would like to hear from a lawyer how well I'm covering myself and if there is a way I could ask these questions better.
I know I've worked hard for the little bit I have, and there's no way I'm going to lose it because I didn't cover my backside well enough when I could have. |
| F2202 |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 20:44:11
quote:
Originally posted by jay
Great question. High school umps used to lay the bats out on the turf and do a quick inspection. Wonder what we pay these guys. If we don't pay enough to get quality oversight then we need to pay em more.
-used to-
GHSA has instructed us (high school umps) not to check the bats before every game. The liability is on the coaches. I really don't want to have to explain this again, go read some of my other posts.
If you think a team is using an illegal bat, let the kid step in the batter's box, ask for time out, and have the umpire check that bat. Once he's in the batter's box with an illegal bat, he's out. If you're really smart about it, wait for someone to get a hit with that bat.
Umpires are not your enemy. |
| bkball |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:15:26
So you are telling me people are altering BBCOR bats too? Crazy. Now what I don't get is saying The kid that has wheels..............useless unless he's on base?
Maybe I am reading it wrong. I did see where kid from Columbus has 9 homeruns and another kid has 5 homeruns. Not sure what the rest of the state is doing, anyone have a website with homeruns stats this season? |
| gasbag |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:54:27
quote:
Originally posted by justletemplay
I believe the intent of the BBCOR bats is just that.....restrict the exit velocity of the ball, off the bat. According to the BBCOR bat regulations there should be no "hot bat" all BBCOR same exit velocity (to closely mimic wood) same size sweet spot (just a bit larger than a wood bat.) A hitter is a hitter, with any bat in his hands. The problem is...............adults condition kids to believe that the long ball is the only ball that should be hit. Your batting average is the same with 30 BH/100AB's as it is with 30HR/100AB. We discount the GB punched thru the hole, the easiest double (down the left field line) the gapper, or the backside hit.
Cheating doesn't produce winners, it might produce wins, but it only produce cheaters and eventually it will catch up with the kid. Ask any high school coach this year. Virtually no over the fence HR. The little (lighter weight) kids who previously could get one thru with a flick of the wrist, off the end of the bat aren't doing that. The kid that has wheels..............useless unless he's on base.
BEGIN WITH THE END IN MIND........
I made my son go to BBCOR last year. I decided to take the opposite approach to many of the sentiments posted here. Sure he was approached by his buddies whom all asked why his HR & triples numbers were down ? I told him he'd be better off in the long run as they all would be playing "catch up" next year. I explained to him that he needs to hone his skills based upon his specific skill set and not by "loaded bats" and home runs. Those are deceiving and not many scouts will look at home runs as much as they will look at your form, approach, mentality, sportsmanship, physical skills etc etc etc. I've yet to hear any scout talk about what type of bat a kid was using, but rather, they talk about the kids skills. My dad always taught me...."it's not the size of the tool but the skill of the craftsman" ( have to say it with an Irish brogue for full effect !!! ). |
| ramman999 |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by justletemplay
I believe the intent of the BBCOR bats is just that.....restrict the exit velocity of the ball, off the bat. According to the BBCOR bat regulations there should be no "hot bat" all BBCOR same exit velocity (to closely mimic wood) same size sweet spot (just a bit larger than a wood bat.) A hitter is a hitter, with any bat in his hands. The problem is...............adults condition kids to believe that the long ball is the only ball that should be hit. Your batting average is the same with 30 BH/100AB's as it is with 30HR/100AB. We discount the GB punched thru the hole, the easiest double (down the left field line) the gapper, or the backside hit.
Cheating doesn't produce winners, it might produce wins, but it only produce cheaters and eventually it will catch up with the kid. Ask any high school coach this year. Virtually no over the fence HR. The little (lighter weight) kids who previously could get one thru with a flick of the wrist, off the end of the bat aren't doing that. The kid that has wheels..............useless unless he's on base.
BEGIN WITH THE END IN MIND........
BBCOR in principle is great, and the defining word is "should be" - just because it has a stamp on it or leaves the manufacturer a certain way doesn't mean that it will remain that way. I do not think the manufacturers have the intention to put out dangerous equipment - I do however believe that in the hands of the some end users (or I should say guardians) the line of competitive advantage/cheating gets blurred and is directly proportional to that persons level of integrity.
|
| justletemplay |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 09:19:35
I believe the intent of the BBCOR bats is just that.....restrict the exit velocity of the ball, off the bat. According to the BBCOR bat regulations there should be no "hot bat" all BBCOR same exit velocity (to closely mimic wood) same size sweet spot (just a bit larger than a wood bat.) A hitter is a hitter, with any bat in his hands. The problem is...............adults condition kids to believe that the long ball is the only ball that should be hit. Your batting average is the same with 30 BH/100AB's as it is with 30HR/100AB. We discount the GB punched thru the hole, the easiest double (down the left field line) the gapper, or the backside hit.
Cheating doesn't produce winners, it might produce wins, but it only produce cheaters and eventually it will catch up with the kid. Ask any high school coach this year. Virtually no over the fence HR. The little (lighter weight) kids who previously could get one thru with a flick of the wrist, off the end of the bat aren't doing that. The kid that has wheels..............useless unless he's on base.
BEGIN WITH THE END IN MIND........ |
| ramman999 |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 08:35:09
quote:
Originally posted by sneakybooger
I think we should all agree that adults can really screw-up a game that is played with a ball and bat.
This is probably the most profound statement ever posted!!! Sticky this one!!!
Seriously, we have taken a simple game and turned it into a multibillion dollar industry. You have hot bats, you have "doctored" bats, you have new bats, you have BBCOR bats, you have an entire industry built around gung ho parents looking the the edge for their sons... Kids are walking around with $1000 worth of bats in their bags - you've got the $$ equivalency of a good used car in the dugout most weekends..
By contrast, you now have an entire industry built around trying to protect your son - evoshields, heart guards, helmets, all kinds of guards and pads. All to make the game safer.. the yang to the bat ying.
I'm telling you, the solution to the issue of "hot" bats is very simple and too obvious, so obvious in fact that nothing would ever be done about it - restrict the ball - it's simple physics - change the compression of the ball, restricts the flight and speed characteristics of the ball flight. The balls are controlled by the TD and the umpires already.. |
| coachdan06 |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 00:13:11
quote:
Originally posted by loveforthegame25
We had a closed tryout today at East Cobb inside the new barn. Two coaches from other teams came in scoping out our kids. We nicely asked them to leave, they did but 20 minutes later. The parents of the kids that were trying out even thought that was a lame move. They had their team name on their shirts. Thoughts??????
Love , my thoughts are that there just too many teams up there at East Cobb always has been
So now the other teams need same number of heads your trying to get : to fill there teams up
Whats the surprise here ? |
| loveforthegame25 |
Posted - 04/15/2012 : 18:19:01
We had a closed tryout today at East Cobb inside the new barn. Two coaches from other teams came in scoping out our kids. We nicely asked them to leave, they did but 20 minutes later. The parents of the kids that were trying out even thought that was a lame move. They had their team name on their shirts. Thoughts?????? |
| coach0512 |
Posted - 04/14/2012 : 10:32:11
Jongame,
When your son is lying on the mound with his occipital bone shattered, blind in his left eye and will never play the game again come back on here and tell us you have not filed a lawsuit against someone. |
| a1prog |
Posted - 04/14/2012 : 09:48:03
I have been reading this thread and would ask two things;
1. for the kid who's hitting bombs with the illegal bat- what happens to him when he gets to high school and using bbcor he's much less of a hitter?
2. seems to me that all of this makes the argument for the younger ages to go to bbcor which is a clear cut standard, and, to have the umps inspect all bats pregame- which is what gets done in h-s and college.
the real bottom line is here is whether people will teach "the game" or teach "to win". subtle perhaps but big difference in the approach one takes. |
| jongamefan |
Posted - 04/14/2012 : 09:04:38
BOOGER  :AGREED & actually i think YOURS is "the post of the year" all this threat talk about 'lawsuits' and 'Im coming after you' blah blah blah is exactly to your point .
I would be royally embarrassed to write that stuff publicly about sons ballgame
quote:
Originally posted by sneakybooger
I think we should all agree that adults can really screw-up a game that is played with a ball and bat.
|
| sneakybooger |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 23:25:59
I think we should all agree that adults can really screw-up a game that is played with a ball and bat. |
| christheump |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 15:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by oldschooldad
quote:
Originally posted by christheump
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
OKAY, this took a little thought and a lot of time to answer, so here it is.
Christheump, The bottom line is its on the coaches and the parents, but I am going to pursue the parties who were at fault. If we start with the basic fact that a player gets hit by a batted ball and an illegal bat was used. Then:
1) If the sanctioning body has a rule in place and they fail to enforce it, that's fault. (But they have rules about everyone following the rules, so they have a reasonable defense)
3) If the TD's are told to follow the rules and they don't then that's fault. (But the TD's tell the coaches and umps to follow the rules and Coaches, if you've ever bothered to read that tiny print on the roster sheets, etc. you'll see that you are promising to follow the rules).
2) If the umpires are told to check bats and they fail to do so, that's fault. (But they ask each coach if the players are properly equipped, which means more than, "Do your players have a cup on?") If the coach coach says yes, Umps can rely on that representation and do not have to check further. If a coach says "I don't know" they will send him back to the dugout to find out.
Christheump, I would suggest that at the pregame meeting you rephrase the question this way: Coaches are your players properly equipped? Does your team have any illegal equipment in the dugout? This requires a Yes, No answer and some thought on the part of the coach. It covers you as the coach is now representing that his team is compliant and you certainly can rely on that representation. If you later find that there is illegal equipment in the dugout or on the field, then perhaps that is grounds for ejection.
3) If the coach knows his player uses an illegal bat and lets them, that's fault. (No excuses, you been emailed the rules and you've read them online multiple times. If the ump asks you if your players are properly equipped, then your affirmative answer means you have assumed the duty of making sure that your players are properly and legally equipped for that game).
4) If the parent knows about the rule and lets his player use it, that's fault. (Yes, it sucks to buy a new bat, but the team can spring for a shared bat if you can't afford one, and you've been playing travel ball for years now, so your eyes are wide open about the expenses involved. And you have gotten the emails and know all about the rule too.)
5) If the bat manufacturer knowingly put a stamp on a non-compliant bat that's fault. (No excuse here, this would warrant punitive damages).
The simple fact is that the manufacturer's did this because there was a first ever verdict against Hillerich & Bradsby Co., an aluminum bat maker, in 2009 stemming from a 2003 incident where a kid was killed by a batted ball. That verdict woke up the industry much like the first verdicts against the Tobacco companies did.
I am frankly amazed that this thread is still going on. The bottom line is there is a bat rule in place for the safety of the players.
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON ALL OF US TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND PROTECT ALL THE PLAYERS ON THE FIELD-- PERIOD Read that again slowly.
This is not about worrying who will get sued, its about making sure a kid does not get badly injured or killed while playing baseball. The bat makers are smart. The tourney folks are smart. The umpires are smart. They have covered their bases on this.
The rest of us need to be smart. There is even a rule that says everybody participating agrees to abide by the rules. Coaches and parents, we have no excuse for an illegal bat even being in the dugout or on the field.
As a society, we rely on everyone else to follow the rules of the road or we may get killed. In the baseball community, we have to rely on each other, parents, coaches, players, umps, TD's, everyone, to insure the game is as safe for the players as it can possibly be. It does not matter that there is small chance of this scenario ever playing out in a game. It can happen, has happened, and it will happen in the future.
That kid on the mound is priceless, as are they all. I've had dozens of clients who have suffered through the death of a loved one in an accident. My clients have lost husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children, grandparents. The child death cases are tough because as a parent I can't help but feel and experience that same pain my clients have had for their lost child. The loss of a child is somthing you never get over and just thinking about losing one of my sons makes my stomach knot up. If you get that same feeling thinking about losing your child, then imagine how you would feel if you let your son or one of your players use an illegal bat that cost a fellow parent or coach their child.
As a coach I had not really thought much about enforcement of this bat rule beyond my own team. But now I think we will ask the opposing coach at the pregame meeting if there are any illegal bats in the dugout, and if the answer is anything other than "No", then we will ask the coach to verify that there are none. We are going to cover our bases as coaches from now on.
I'll just sum up by saying that if you roll the dice with my kid or any other kid on the mound and let your player use an illegal bat, then you better be prepared to pay the price and live with the consequences. And it won't be just you who has to live with it. Your player will have to live with it, too.
In no way do I mean any disrespect and if you personally knew me, you would know that the kids safety is first and foremost with me, BUT you sound like a typical attorney. Why does accountability and blame ALWAYS get shifted to those who are not responsible for the act? Your comments really sound like that you would want a piece of anyone who was involved regardless how small their role. Heck, why not include the bat bag mfg for failing to put an illegal bat detector in the bags or Rawlings, Worth, Wilson, or Diamond for failing to make anti-illegal bat balls. Where does the line get drawn. It is a sad state when I have to put on my gear and worry about being held accountable for the illegal acts of others. Blame the coach, player, and players parents.
Maybe the next tourney I call I will bring a stack of indemnity clauses that I make each parent, player, and coach sign before I call to play ball. I am person who loves to umpire, not an attorney. If I ask a coach if his team is properly and legally equipped, and he says yes: It's on them and not me.
Chris, I generally find your comments and insights as an umpire provide a very useful and enjoyable perspective that is much different than most of us that read and post their comments. I do however find it hard to understand your recent comments about the kids safety being your first and foremost concern then followed by your criticism of a legal opinion about how you may address and prevent being held accountable.
IMHO if kids safety is always your top priority then it seems to me that you would check each bat before each game you umpire. It wouldn't matter if the rule book or TD doesn't require it. Do it because safety of the kids is more important than saving time or the hassle it may create. I don't think that is such an unreasonable request. No one is asking you to do anything extra-ordinary or requiring you to know the motives of someone intent on cheating. Simply doing what you can to be sure the equipment being used is safe for all kids playing.
Just my .02
I am still just giving you my perspective as an umpire. We can only do so much to ensure the safety of your kids, and even my kids. But at the end of the day, it is still up to the parents to make sure their kids are using legal equipment and/or playing on teams who's coaches ensure their players equipment is legal.
I look at it this way, say there are 11 players on the roster and if I inspect 11 bats and they appear legal and the bat is legal, great. But how am I to ensure that the specific 11 bats I inspected are the actual bats being used. What if it is a team whose players share bats among themselves and I only inspected 7 bats, and who is to say that player X reaches into his bag, after the pre-game inspections are done, and grabs his bat that is non-compliant now creating 8 bats. What if this "extra" is used in a play that results in injury. How am I going to prove that I did or didnt inspet that bat. All the injured parents have to say is "the umpire should have inspected all the bats". Well I thought I had inspected all the bats.
All I am saying is just dont throw "I am going to sue everyone and their brothers if something happens" around. Criminals will commit crimes no matter what laws are created and cheaters will cheat. |
| RACGOFAR |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 14:28:33
"Why does accountability and blame ALWAYS get shifted to those who are not responsible for the act?"
Chris, this is a fair question and the answer, somewhat boiled down is that accountability is almost always shifted and just about everyone tries to do it in every aspect of our society. We do this in our society because we can. Its the main reason that I have to file suit against ANY potential at fault party in a case. NOBODY WANTS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND EVERYBODY WANTS TO PASS THE BLAME. Isn't this why you ask the coaches if the players are properly equipped before every game? Yep. So when Johnny's parents allege that you didn't follow the rules, you can point to the coach and say, "I asked him and he said his kids were all properly equipped." Why did the bat companies change their product? Why do the associations even have a rule? Why do we all sign waivers and other crap so our kids can play baseball? So accountability and blame can be shifted. Its just been the way of doing business here in America for over a hundred years.
If you go back and read what I posted, under the current rules, regs, etc. the blame for an illegal bat being in a game rests squarely on the parents and the coaches and that is my legal opinion. When I tell that umpire my players are properly equipped then its on me if I let one of my players use an illegal bat and somebody gets hurt. But if I've told my parents that we aren't going to use illegal bats and not to bring them to the game, well, its not going to be on me, its going to be on the parent. that is not say that in every instance where an illegal bat caused injury that there could not be other persons or entities at fault.
"If I ask a coach if his team is properly and legally equipped, and he says yes: It's on them and not me." Chris, we are in absolute agreement on that. I don't know you other than from your posts here. Its easy to read something into a post, so please understand that I did not mean to offend as I'm sure you don't mean to offend me. We are all part of the travel baseball community and that means we are all part of the solution to issues we face.
quote:
If a kid hits a ball with a bat that is stamped and that he and his family thinks is legal then how could they be held accountable.
Papa, I don't see any way that they could be accountable if they follow the rules, unless they've tampered with the bat to change its performance specs. But you can be sure that any parent who lost a child will have the blame finger pointed at them. The parent whose lost their child would be subjected to this type of questioning: "You knew he might get hit by a ball, right? He's been hit by a ball before? Multiple times in a weekend? He has had bruises and injuries from being hit? He plays 60+ games a year? You knew that he could be hit and seriously injured? And knowing all of this you still let your child play?
"BUT, even if a kid uses an illegal bat and hits a ball that injures a player, whose to say that the batted ball would not have done the same amount of damage if it had been batted with a legal bat? Fact is, all of these players are at risk of injury every time they step on the field and the thought of suing everyone and their brother because your kid got hurt while playing is silly."
Good points TAZ. We all assume the risk that our kids might be injured playing baseball. But that assumption of the risk is only for injuries that happen within the rules of the sport. When someone goes beyond the rules and an injury occurs, then they are going to be accountable and blameworthy. |
| bkball |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 14:15:37
As I have said in the past. This is an issue for the new BBCOR bats but for the other bats with the new USSSA and 1.15BPF stamped bats it's a complete joke.
"THEY ARE DANGEROUS AND HAVE BEEN DANGEROUS" They are the same bats as years past.
The stamp might make them legal but you could have a lab test two of the same bats from 2011. One with a stamp one without and they are the exact same bat however one is legal for play. Does USSSA or anyone have a list with pictures year the bat was made or model numbers of the bats that are legal for play? This would end a lot of the problems. I would also promise there would be bats out there that have the stamp that are not on the list. Why do you think they don't have a specific list? When College went to the BBCOR rule they made a list? Think about it. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 12:18:17
I am not trying to be the devil's advocate and I have been more than clear that I think that anyone using an illegal bat should be hung by a rope from a tree and I don't think we would need an attorney to hang him. We could just find a tree and hang them at the ballfield for all to see. I would bet that this would at least slow down the cheating.
But I have a huge problem about the kid that is using a bat that might be illegal but he or his family does not have a clue that it is illegal. If a kid hits a ball with a bat that is stamped and that he and his family thinks is legal then how could they be held accountable. |
| TAZ980002 |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 12:01:40
First of all, I am against any kind of cheating - PERIOD !! I don't support it in any way, never have, never will.
All of this talk of law suits against TD's, umpires and coaches is ridiculous. The blame clearly falls on the parents of the kid using the illegal bat, provided they knowingly provided their child with an illegal bat. BUT, even if a kid uses an illegal bat and hits a ball that injures a player, whose to say that the batted ball would not have done the same amount of damage if it had been batted with a legal bat? Fact is, all of these players are at risk of injury every time they step on the field and the thought of suing everyone and their brother because your kid got hurt while playing is silly.
Bottom line, be responsible and teach responsibility to your kids. That means don't use illegal equipment, don't cheat and don't tie up our legal system suing people who aren't directly responsible for the incident at hand. |
| oldschooldad |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by christheump
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
OKAY, this took a little thought and a lot of time to answer, so here it is.
Christheump, The bottom line is its on the coaches and the parents, but I am going to pursue the parties who were at fault. If we start with the basic fact that a player gets hit by a batted ball and an illegal bat was used. Then:
1) If the sanctioning body has a rule in place and they fail to enforce it, that's fault. (But they have rules about everyone following the rules, so they have a reasonable defense)
3) If the TD's are told to follow the rules and they don't then that's fault. (But the TD's tell the coaches and umps to follow the rules and Coaches, if you've ever bothered to read that tiny print on the roster sheets, etc. you'll see that you are promising to follow the rules).
2) If the umpires are told to check bats and they fail to do so, that's fault. (But they ask each coach if the players are properly equipped, which means more than, "Do your players have a cup on?") If the coach coach says yes, Umps can rely on that representation and do not have to check further. If a coach says "I don't know" they will send him back to the dugout to find out.
Christheump, I would suggest that at the pregame meeting you rephrase the question this way: Coaches are your players properly equipped? Does your team have any illegal equipment in the dugout? This requires a Yes, No answer and some thought on the part of the coach. It covers you as the coach is now representing that his team is compliant and you certainly can rely on that representation. If you later find that there is illegal equipment in the dugout or on the field, then perhaps that is grounds for ejection.
3) If the coach knows his player uses an illegal bat and lets them, that's fault. (No excuses, you been emailed the rules and you've read them online multiple times. If the ump asks you if your players are properly equipped, then your affirmative answer means you have assumed the duty of making sure that your players are properly and legally equipped for that game).
4) If the parent knows about the rule and lets his player use it, that's fault. (Yes, it sucks to buy a new bat, but the team can spring for a shared bat if you can't afford one, and you've been playing travel ball for years now, so your eyes are wide open about the expenses involved. And you have gotten the emails and know all about the rule too.)
5) If the bat manufacturer knowingly put a stamp on a non-compliant bat that's fault. (No excuse here, this would warrant punitive damages).
The simple fact is that the manufacturer's did this because there was a first ever verdict against Hillerich & Bradsby Co., an aluminum bat maker, in 2009 stemming from a 2003 incident where a kid was killed by a batted ball. That verdict woke up the industry much like the first verdicts against the Tobacco companies did.
I am frankly amazed that this thread is still going on. The bottom line is there is a bat rule in place for the safety of the players.
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON ALL OF US TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND PROTECT ALL THE PLAYERS ON THE FIELD-- PERIOD Read that again slowly.
This is not about worrying who will get sued, its about making sure a kid does not get badly injured or killed while playing baseball. The bat makers are smart. The tourney folks are smart. The umpires are smart. They have covered their bases on this.
The rest of us need to be smart. There is even a rule that says everybody participating agrees to abide by the rules. Coaches and parents, we have no excuse for an illegal bat even being in the dugout or on the field.
As a society, we rely on everyone else to follow the rules of the road or we may get killed. In the baseball community, we have to rely on each other, parents, coaches, players, umps, TD's, everyone, to insure the game is as safe for the players as it can possibly be. It does not matter that there is small chance of this scenario ever playing out in a game. It can happen, has happened, and it will happen in the future.
That kid on the mound is priceless, as are they all. I've had dozens of clients who have suffered through the death of a loved one in an accident. My clients have lost husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children, grandparents. The child death cases are tough because as a parent I can't help but feel and experience that same pain my clients have had for their lost child. The loss of a child is somthing you never get over and just thinking about losing one of my sons makes my stomach knot up. If you get that same feeling thinking about losing your child, then imagine how you would feel if you let your son or one of your players use an illegal bat that cost a fellow parent or coach their child.
As a coach I had not really thought much about enforcement of this bat rule beyond my own team. But now I think we will ask the opposing coach at the pregame meeting if there are any illegal bats in the dugout, and if the answer is anything other than "No", then we will ask the coach to verify that there are none. We are going to cover our bases as coaches from now on.
I'll just sum up by saying that if you roll the dice with my kid or any other kid on the mound and let your player use an illegal bat, then you better be prepared to pay the price and live with the consequences. And it won't be just you who has to live with it. Your player will have to live with it, too.
In no way do I mean any disrespect and if you personally knew me, you would know that the kids safety is first and foremost with me, BUT you sound like a typical attorney. Why does accountability and blame ALWAYS get shifted to those who are not responsible for the act? Your comments really sound like that you would want a piece of anyone who was involved regardless how small their role. Heck, why not include the bat bag mfg for failing to put an illegal bat detector in the bags or Rawlings, Worth, Wilson, or Diamond for failing to make anti-illegal bat balls. Where does the line get drawn. It is a sad state when I have to put on my gear and worry about being held accountable for the illegal acts of others. Blame the coach, player, and players parents.
Maybe the next tourney I call I will bring a stack of indemnity clauses that I make each parent, player, and coach sign before I call to play ball. I am person who loves to umpire, not an attorney. If I ask a coach if his team is properly and legally equipped, and he says yes: It's on them and not me.
Chris, I generally find your comments and insights as an umpire provide a very useful and enjoyable perspective that is much different than most of us that read and post their comments. I do however find it hard to understand your recent comments about the kids safety being your first and foremost concern then followed by your criticism of a legal opinion about how you may address and prevent being held accountable.
IMHO if kids safety is always your top priority then it seems to me that you would check each bat before each game you umpire. It wouldn't matter if the rule book or TD doesn't require it. Do it because safety of the kids is more important than saving time or the hassle it may create. I don't think that is such an unreasonable request. No one is asking you to do anything extra-ordinary or requiring you to know the motives of someone intent on cheating. Simply doing what you can to be sure the equipment being used is safe for all kids playing.
Just my .02
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| Outtahere |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:43:02
Thanks for your comments Racgofar. I agree with all of your comments and am with you that it is a sad state that we have to debate a thread like this one. Chris, from your previous posts on this board you sound like a stand up guy. So please don't take it personally. However, ive been around long enough to know that not all coaches and parents are stand up folks. I encourage you to do as Rac stated, ask the coaches point blank if they have illegal bats then it IS on them. TD's on the other hand need to have bat testing equipment to cover themselves period.
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| ChinMusic |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:14:50
quote:
[i]
In no way do I mean any disrespect and if you personally knew me, you would know that the kids safety is first and foremost with me, BUT you sound like a typical attorney. Why does accountability and blame ALWAYS get shifted to those who are not responsible for the act? Your comments really sound like that you would want a piece of anyone who was involved regardless how small their role. Heck, why not include the bat bag mfg for failing to put an illegal bat detector in the bags or Rawlings, Worth, Wilson, or Diamond for failing to make anti-illegal bat balls. Where does the line get drawn. It is a sad state when I have to put on my gear and worry about being held accountable for the illegal acts of others. Blame the coach, player, and players parents.
Maybe the next tourney I call I will bring a stack of indemnity clauses that I make each parent, player, and coach sign before I call to play ball. I am person who loves to umpire, not an attorney. If I ask a coach if his team is properly and legally equipped, and he says yes: It's on them and not me.
Bravo Chris!! This is getting ridiculous!!
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| bulldogbaseball100 |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:58:45
RACGOFAR - Post of the year for me! So much so that it fanned even more passionate flames as I visualize my son...or any other player, suffering serious injury or death. Sick to my stomach. You guys know who you are. Many on this site know who you are. It is never too late to do the right thing. So stop it NOW! My favorite definition of Integrity follows what you do when no one is watching. So just do it - get rid of the bat and protect these kids. If you are a parent or coach that, if you are honest with yourself, knows of someone with a shaved bat... make a stand, have a private conversation and help protect our kids. "It" only has to happen once and anyone that kinda knew but did nothing will carry the burden for the rest of their lives. Time to step up to the plate! |
| christheump |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:34:00
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
OKAY, this took a little thought and a lot of time to answer, so here it is.
Christheump, The bottom line is its on the coaches and the parents, but I am going to pursue the parties who were at fault. If we start with the basic fact that a player gets hit by a batted ball and an illegal bat was used. Then:
1) If the sanctioning body has a rule in place and they fail to enforce it, that's fault. (But they have rules about everyone following the rules, so they have a reasonable defense)
3) If the TD's are told to follow the rules and they don't then that's fault. (But the TD's tell the coaches and umps to follow the rules and Coaches, if you've ever bothered to read that tiny print on the roster sheets, etc. you'll see that you are promising to follow the rules).
2) If the umpires are told to check bats and they fail to do so, that's fault. (But they ask each coach if the players are properly equipped, which means more than, "Do your players have a cup on?") If the coach coach says yes, Umps can rely on that representation and do not have to check further. If a coach says "I don't know" they will send him back to the dugout to find out.
Christheump, I would suggest that at the pregame meeting you rephrase the question this way: Coaches are your players properly equipped? Does your team have any illegal equipment in the dugout? This requires a Yes, No answer and some thought on the part of the coach. It covers you as the coach is now representing that his team is compliant and you certainly can rely on that representation. If you later find that there is illegal equipment in the dugout or on the field, then perhaps that is grounds for ejection.
3) If the coach knows his player uses an illegal bat and lets them, that's fault. (No excuses, you been emailed the rules and you've read them online multiple times. If the ump asks you if your players are properly equipped, then your affirmative answer means you have assumed the duty of making sure that your players are properly and legally equipped for that game).
4) If the parent knows about the rule and lets his player use it, that's fault. (Yes, it sucks to buy a new bat, but the team can spring for a shared bat if you can't afford one, and you've been playing travel ball for years now, so your eyes are wide open about the expenses involved. And you have gotten the emails and know all about the rule too.)
5) If the bat manufacturer knowingly put a stamp on a non-compliant bat that's fault. (No excuse here, this would warrant punitive damages).
The simple fact is that the manufacturer's did this because there was a first ever verdict against Hillerich & Bradsby Co., an aluminum bat maker, in 2009 stemming from a 2003 incident where a kid was killed by a batted ball. That verdict woke up the industry much like the first verdicts against the Tobacco companies did.
I am frankly amazed that this thread is still going on. The bottom line is there is a bat rule in place for the safety of the players.
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON ALL OF US TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND PROTECT ALL THE PLAYERS ON THE FIELD-- PERIOD Read that again slowly.
This is not about worrying who will get sued, its about making sure a kid does not get badly injured or killed while playing baseball. The bat makers are smart. The tourney folks are smart. The umpires are smart. They have covered their bases on this.
The rest of us need to be smart. There is even a rule that says everybody participating agrees to abide by the rules. Coaches and parents, we have no excuse for an illegal bat even being in the dugout or on the field.
As a society, we rely on everyone else to follow the rules of the road or we may get killed. In the baseball community, we have to rely on each other, parents, coaches, players, umps, TD's, everyone, to insure the game is as safe for the players as it can possibly be. It does not matter that there is small chance of this scenario ever playing out in a game. It can happen, has happened, and it will happen in the future.
That kid on the mound is priceless, as are they all. I've had dozens of clients who have suffered through the death of a loved one in an accident. My clients have lost husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children, grandparents. The child death cases are tough because as a parent I can't help but feel and experience that same pain my clients have had for their lost child. The loss of a child is somthing you never get over and just thinking about losing one of my sons makes my stomach knot up. If you get that same feeling thinking about losing your child, then imagine how you would feel if you let your son or one of your players use an illegal bat that cost a fellow parent or coach their child.
As a coach I had not really thought much about enforcement of this bat rule beyond my own team. But now I think we will ask the opposing coach at the pregame meeting if there are any illegal bats in the dugout, and if the answer is anything other than "No", then we will ask the coach to verify that there are none. We are going to cover our bases as coaches from now on.
I'll just sum up by saying that if you roll the dice with my kid or any other kid on the mound and let your player use an illegal bat, then you better be prepared to pay the price and live with the consequences. And it won't be just you who has to live with it. Your player will have to live with it, too.
In no way do I mean any disrespect and if you personally knew me, you would know that the kids safety is first and foremost with me, BUT you sound like a typical attorney. Why does accountability and blame ALWAYS get shifted to those who are not responsible for the act? Your comments really sound like that you would want a piece of anyone who was involved regardless how small their role. Heck, why not include the bat bag mfg for failing to put an illegal bat detector in the bags or Rawlings, Worth, Wilson, or Diamond for failing to make anti-illegal bat balls. Where does the line get drawn. It is a sad state when I have to put on my gear and worry about being held accountable for the illegal acts of others. Blame the coach, player, and players parents.
Maybe the next tourney I call I will bring a stack of indemnity clauses that I make each parent, player, and coach sign before I call to play ball. I am person who loves to umpire, not an attorney. If I ask a coach if his team is properly and legally equipped, and he says yes: It's on them and not me. |
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