| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| coach0512 |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 10:43:20
So several posts here have said they would prefer tournament pitching limits based on pitch count instead of innings pitched.
I am hosting a tournament this spring and will be glad to test the pitch count theory but have run into a snag.
How do you realistically verify pitch count in a tournament with multiple games being played simultaneously?
My first thought was each manager is required to pull his pitcher when the pitch count is hit or at the end of the inning the pitch count is reached. So who tracks the pitch count? If you rely on each manager to track the count then pitches could be "missed" to let the pitcher on the mound for an additional inning. One team is bound to complain that the other team is not keeping accurate counts.
How about the official score keeper? The official score keeper is picked from the parents of the "home" team and you still have the same issues as above.
The tournament should supply official score keepers. Now you are adding to the workload of the volunteer teams hosting the event and there could still be complaints about favoritism depending on the two teams playing.
Have the umps keep track of it. They have enough to do already and they sometimes have trouble keeping the ball/strike count accurate. I doubt the hired umps would agree to be responsible for pitch count.
As much as I want to use pitch count limits in the tournament I don't see how that is a feasible option compared to tracking innings pitched.
Any thoughts you may have on how to make a pitch count limit work will be appreciated and, I hope, debated on this post. If something viable turns up I will use it in my tournament and provide feedback. |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Throwstrikes |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 16:29:23
In LL the opposing scorekeeper keeps track of each teams pitch count and you as the coach and umpire verify that count at the end of each inning to make sure that there are no discrepancies. I managed regular and all star teams in one of the largest LL in the country and it worked great...never had an issue. As a coach we currently track pitches thrown for every game and don’t let them go over the pitch count, it is not difficult to track.
Pitcher could throw three pitches in an inning or a hundred and travel ball treats it the same, but in the health of the child’s arm it is a world of difference. I am not a huge fan of LL but the pitch count rules is one thing that they have gotten correct, thanks to Dr. Andrews. Many of these pitchers also catch and LL rules address that as well. My son does both and while I did not like the way the entire pitching-catching rule is, I am a big believer in it as well.
|
| ivpartner |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 16:20:25
I may be wrong but our scorekeeper ALWAYS keeps a pitch count log on the scoring sheet for our games. When we played Rec Ball our league had a hard pitch count rule. Each scorekeeper recorded each pitch and notified the head coach AND homeplate umpire of the count and when the pitcher reached the maximum. Never had a problem.
Seems like TD's of travel ball tournaments could enter that information as easily as they currently enter innings pitched for teams on their website. If you exceed the counts then you forfeit the games just like when you exceed innings pitched now. |
| coach0512 |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 15:18:41
So far all the suggestions are useful.
I like OSDs and BHs suggestion of comparing pitch counts and coming to a concensus at the end of each inning. Would require opposing coaches to be civil with each other periodically throughout the game and that might mean a better atmosphere (we can hope, can't we?).
I agree to finish a pitcher on a certain batter not at the end of the inning as I was planning.
Stan has a great idea also, I think. I have spray charts and pitching records of all 200, give or take, games I have been involved in going back 3 years and can calculate an average pitch count per batter and use that. The counter-argument about the efficient pitcher is that he is getting more hitters out and thus will be pitching more innings than the less efficient pitcher who is probably allowing more base runners. And thats what coaches want-their better pitchers going deeper in games. Problem is the less efficient pitcher has a higher pitch count to the same number of hitters, possibly. In that case it will be the responsibility of the coach to pull his pitcher before the max hitter # and we are right back where we started.
Now lets add this: Required rest period with a pitch count limit.
Whichever method we use, how much rest is required if the pitcher reaches the max allowed in a game?
Lets say the max is 12 hitters or, if we go with a pitch count limit, 60 pitches and the pitcher hits the limit. Eligible to pitch the next day or not?
|
| oldschooldad |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 15:12:03
quote:
Originally posted by stanlewis
I have unsuccessfully proposed a few times to various organizations that instead of a pitch count, use batters faced. Batters faced is known by both scorekeepers and is an official stat. Pitch counts are hard to keep up with because of foul balls, balks, etc and sometimes it gets ugly between teams. Do an analysis of some games at the various age groups and come up with a reasonably accurate average number of pitches per batter and divide that into the recommended number of pitches per game to determine the limit. The argument is that the pitcher that is efficient gets penalized and the pitcher that struggles goes over the limit. But the exact same argument applies to the current system of using innings pitched and can lead to more abuse for the pitcher with walks, hits and errors.
Not sure if I like the batters faced angle. If the true goal is to prevent overuse and possible injury to a young arm, limiting the number of batters faced seems like more of a balancing or canceling out a strong pitcher or pitchers.
Still think if the goal is the prevention of injury, the number of pitches thrown is the only accurate measure. Still need to be sure the coach doesn't overuse the players that catch and pitch. JMHO.
|
| momshell |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 14:17:56
I like Stan's idea. The argument he presents becomes more of an issue when you have umpires with super small strike zones, but on the other hand, I would hope that the coach of a struggling pitcher wouldn't leave him in for too long anyway. That problem should correct itself with decent coaching. |
| stanlewis |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 11:23:23
I have unsuccessfully proposed a few times to various organizations that instead of a pitch count, use batters faced. Batters faced is known by both scorekeepers and is an official stat. Pitch counts are hard to keep up with because of foul balls, balks, etc and sometimes it gets ugly between teams. Do an analysis of some games at the various age groups and come up with a reasonably accurate average number of pitches per batter and divide that into the recommended number of pitches per game to determine the limit. The argument is that the pitcher that is efficient gets penalized and the pitcher that struggles goes over the limit. But the exact same argument applies to the current system of using innings pitched and can lead to more abuse for the pitcher with walks, hits and errors. |
| TAZ980002 |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 11:02:55
Coach, when I was involved in the rec department in our county, the home team was responsible for keeping the pitch count along with the scorebook, just like they are in most travel tournaments. I, as a coach, would verify at the end of each half inning with the opposing team what the pitch count was. If the two sides were off by one pitch, we would just go with the lower pitch count. I don't ever remember the two sides being off by more than one pitch.
BTW, the only way our organization would allow a pitcher to exceed the limit was to finish pitching to a batter who had already begun his at bat when the pitch limit was reached. Once that batter had reached base or called out, the pitcher was done. |
| oldschooldad |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 11:01:38
Great topic! Wondering what tracking system LL uses? How about each team keep track and have them compare totals each inning with the umpire. Any issue and the home book is the offical number.Have the tournament provide a scorekeeper for the scoreboard that has a clicker to count pitches. No real hard to do plus I always that having to ask a parent of the visiting team to work the board was a real pain. |
