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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| rippit |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 18:31:58
I've read SO much about moving up to bigger fields, hitting for average, big boys who run slow vs little boys who run fast, and now BBCOR bats. I think the men are about to be separated from the boys and it's about time.
Here it comes: your kid reaches 14U, you are now playing on 60/90, you HAVE to swing a big boy bat (-5 or -3) AND it has to be BBCOR approved.
I'm gonna bet on my BIG, not so slow, player, who not only has been hitting for average, but also power, and who has been driving the baseball into the gaps because he can, over the little, fast, hits for average on a 225 field with a -10 bat and it gets taken away player who finds himself having to run 10-20 feet farther...and has been training with a wood bat in the cages for almost 12 months straight...
Well you get the picture.
The kid has NEVER hit a home run in a game on a 300' field because he learned to hit line drives instead and never used a juiced bat. You get on base more that way.
On another note: those folks on that thread talking about bat shaving, rolling etc.: I would feel just AWFUL if I was a parent allowing my kid to use an illegal bat that knocked some kid out or WORSE. Accept the rules and learn to play by them. It's just a game. Don't ruin it for the rest of us. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| toprank |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 08:16:30
quote:
Originally posted by dmb350
I don't know about 12u kids hitting 80 but my son plays 14u major/elite and there are several boys throwing 78-84/5 with control.
Astros
RR Blue
RR Grey
JCS Jackhammers
643 DP Cougars
ECB Titans
ECB Tigers
AL Vipers
and so on.....
All of these teams have boys above 80 with control. Some of them have several. It's not talk or "academy" guns it's highend calibrated guns with the speeds looked at over several pitches. We play these teams week after week. Go watch some Sunday bracket play this weekend and you'll see it for yourself.
Big difference between 14 years old and 12 years old. I could believe the 2007 Texas team had some big arms as I remember that team being loaded. |
| dmb350 |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 16:26:46
I don't know about 12u kids hitting 80 but my son plays 14u major/elite and there are several boys throwing 78-84/5 with control.
Astros
RR Blue
RR Grey
JCS Jackhammers
643 DP Cougars
ECB Titans
ECB Tigers
AL Vipers
and so on.....
All of these teams have boys above 80 with control. Some of them have several. It's not talk or "academy" guns it's highend calibrated guns with the speeds looked at over several pitches. We play these teams week after week. Go watch some Sunday bracket play this weekend and you'll see it for yourself.
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| TBBFAN |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 13:22:35
quote:
Originally posted by toprank
What team did you radar a 12 year old throwing 80mph?
The 2007 Houston Banditos Black had several players that threw in the low 80’s. I didn’t believe it, so I decided to buy a radar gun to see for myself (I had wanted one anyway). The first game I watched, the Banditos pitcher from California was consistently hitting 81 mph (he has now committed to UCLA). The relief pitcher that night also hit 80mph, but I heard his coach say “he is backing off just to throw strikes” (he has committed to Texas Tech). Apparently, he had hit 84mph the week before on a JUGs gun, and I honestly believe that after watching him throw 80mph with ease. They threw a lefty from North Carolina the next day that hit 78mph on the few warm up pitches I used the radar on, so he likely hit 80 as well during the actualy game (as was rumored). The scary part was, their best player and strongest arm rarely pitched for them(he is now committed to Texas).
I also remember watching a kid hit 80mph at the Battle in the South in Tennessee a couple years ago. Based on a few comments here, there are a couple 12u Bandits players hitting 80mph this year, but I have not seen them play so I can’t confirm.
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| toprank |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 09:37:29
quote:
Originally posted by TBBFAN
In my experience, the average speed for a 12u Major pitcher is generally mid to upper 60’s. Most good pitchers at 12u throw in the low 70’s. The best 12u pitchers throw in the mid 70’s, and I’ve seen a few in the low 80’s. And, yes I have an expensive radar gun.
What team did you radar a 12 year old throwing 80mph?
Running speed is huge, strong arm is important, the rest can be taught.
What else can't be taught is mental toughness, desire, work ethic and eye sight. I think all these things come into play with a little luck and staying away from big injuries and mishaps, that is what allows players to stand out at the next level each season as they move up.
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| bballman |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 08:36:16
I'll say this, I have been to a number of HS aged showcase events. Velocities are not what most would think. I was at the Georgia Dugout Club Top 100 showcase out at Mt. Paran yesterday. I saw about half of the first game and the whole 2nd game and was sitting behind the radar guns. I saw two kids hit 88, one kid hit 84, an other maybe 2 or 3 kids sit 80-82 and everyone else was in the 70's. Many more kids in the 73-76 range than anything else. This showcase was for rising 10th - 12th graders. I went to another one at North Gwinnett last fall and the vast majority of kids we in the 70's there as well. Top velocity was 87. That was on senior day, and that velocity was recorded by a Junior. I have also been to several Perfect Game showcases. There will be maybe 5% of the kids there throwing over 85, another 15% throwing 80+ and the rest are in the 70's. I have been shocked by the number of kids that go to Perfect Game events that are throwing in the 70's.
If there are that many kids throwing in the 70's as 12 year old's, my suspicion is that many will stall at that velocity. It is far and few between that wind up throwing upper 80's. My experience over 3 years of HS ball is that the vast majority of pitchers in 5A are throwing in the low 80's. There are some that will go 85+ and then there are the rare one's that will actually throw 90+. I have heard a lot about the 90+ guys, and then when I see them pitch, they are sitting 86-89 and never touch 90. A lot of times those 90 guys have touched that once in a while, but generally don't get there very often.
I have also seen a lot of kids that threw mid 70's as a 12 or 13 year old, that are still throwing mid to upper 70's as a 17 year old. Genetics will play a big part in that.
In terms of the rest of this thread, I think the kids who are "baseball players" will have the opportunity to play as they get older. Are there fewer spots for the "bigger, slower" kids? Yes there are, but if they can flat out hit the baseball, they will find a spot. The most spots are for the "bigger, faster" kids as the level gets higher. That doesn't mean the "smaller, faster" kids won't have a chance, they will. If they are athletic, have an exceptional arm and can hit, they will get a chance to play. It all comes down to - can you hit, or can you pitch. If you excell in either one of these areas as the field gets bigger and the competition gets better, you will have the opportunity to play. |
| TBBFAN |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 01:03:53
quote:
Originally posted by biged
Quick google search came up with this:
Generally, 14 year old average cruising speed would be about 65 mph. Average freshman pitcher (14 to 15 year old) cruising speed would be about 70 mph. Average cruising speed for a good high school pitching prospect at 14 to 15 years old would be about 75 mph. That will usually get a freshman pitcher onto the JV team, assuming reasonable pitching ability to go along with the pitching velocity. Cruising at 80 mph as a freshman would be a potential star. Cruising at 85 mph as a freshman is maybe one in the entire country each year.
I do a lot of work with 14-15 year old pitchers. In our area, average cruising speed for a 15 year old (which would normally be a freshman) is somewhere between 65-69 mph.
At 70+ mph would be good.
At 75+ mph would be very good (and probably a ticket to the sophomore or JV team.
At 80+ would be exceptional (and a ticket to the varsity at most schools).
Those are average speeds. Most can top out a couple mph over their cruising youth baseball pitching speed occasionally.
It is amazing how much slower everyone throws when a quality and accurate baseball radar gun is around. Don't believe academy guns, and don't believe word of mouth. I have seen scout guns on many top prospects, and they usually cruise at least 3-4 mph below what I heard the cruised.
In my experience, the average speed for a 12u Major pitcher is generally mid to upper 60’s. Most good pitchers at 12u throw in the low 70’s. The best 12u pitchers throw in the mid 70’s, and I’ve seen a few in the low 80’s. And, yes I have an expensive radar gun.
So, I have a really hard time believing that the average 14u pitcher is only in the mid 60’s.
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| biged |
Posted - 06/13/2011 : 15:19:50
Quick google search came up with this:
Generally, 14 year old average cruising speed would be about 65 mph. Average freshman pitcher (14 to 15 year old) cruising speed would be about 70 mph. Average cruising speed for a good high school pitching prospect at 14 to 15 years old would be about 75 mph. That will usually get a freshman pitcher onto the JV team, assuming reasonable pitching ability to go along with the pitching velocity. Cruising at 80 mph as a freshman would be a potential star. Cruising at 85 mph as a freshman is maybe one in the entire country each year.
I do a lot of work with 14-15 year old pitchers. In our area, average cruising speed for a 15 year old (which would normally be a freshman) is somewhere between 65-69 mph.
At 70+ mph would be good.
At 75+ mph would be very good (and probably a ticket to the sophomore or JV team.
At 80+ would be exceptional (and a ticket to the varsity at most schools).
Those are average speeds. Most can top out a couple mph over their cruising youth baseball pitching speed occasionally.
It is amazing how much slower everyone throws when a quality and accurate baseball radar gun is around. Don't believe academy guns, and don't believe word of mouth. I have seen scout guns on many top prospects, and they usually cruise at least 3-4 mph below what I heard the cruised. |
| biged |
Posted - 06/13/2011 : 15:09:08
demb350 , I am referring to average pitching speed, not the exceptional. Sure there are kids in all ages who excel, but from my experience from birth till high school I can say with a degree of confidence that the "average" velocity for 14u pitchers is in the 60's and the "average" velocity for 16u is in the 80's.
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| Take 2 |
Posted - 06/12/2011 : 22:50:43
My High School son went to several college camps and the Coaches told the boys that when they get to college "they teach SPEED"!! Don't worry if you are in the high 6 seconds or even in the 7's on the 60YD, College Scouts are not looking at speed, they are looking at fundamentals and bat speed. Being a little faster runner is a plus but College Coaches can get kids to the speed they need!!!
Talked with several HS coaches and they all said the game of baseball has changed due to the BBCOR bats----only the strong will survive!!! With BBCOR---bigger/stronger is better, however, quickness is still needed in key defensive positions. Most HS and College Coaches are glad to see the changes in bats. They have witnessed some terrible shots to their pitchers and know of many hitters on their squads that have bat speeds high enough to kill someone.
That's the beauty of all sports, each individual has a shot, just not at the same spot.
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| bmoser |
Posted - 06/12/2011 : 08:03:46
Speed is the most important of the 5 tools because its used in offense and defense. Setting aside all other skills, players with good speed can play any position, slow players cannot.
Large slow lumbering bombers, as they transition from 12U to 13U, will be limited to 1st base, 3rd base, catcher, and pitcher (sub runner for pitchers/catchers).
In High School, the only place I see these large slower boys is on 1st base.
There are more places to play for boys with good speed, fewer places to play for larger boys that are slow.
The faster boys who can hit for average will pass by the fast boys who can't. The faster boys who can hit for average and have good arm strength will pass by the faster boys who hit for average but have weak arms.
The highest chance of success is good speed, hit for average, strong arm, good glove. There are more places to play on the field with this set of skills. 5 of the 8 positions (not including pitcher) require this group of attributes. 3 of 8 not quite as much.
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| dmb350 |
Posted - 06/11/2011 : 00:55:26
Biged, not sure where your playing but our boys play the majors/open tourneys and see 76-83/84 as average pitching speeds verified by REAL radar guns (not Bushnell speedsters) Astros, RR Blue & Grey, Team GA, JCS JACKHAMMERS, 6-4-3 (both teams), ECB Titans and some of the AL,TN and LA teams that came over for the SNIT all have guys throwing gas well beyond mid 60's. That's curve ball speeds now for these boys.
Bat speed is more of an issue at 88+ and you have to figure out wants coming because your not catching up to a fastball at those speeds but the off speed stuff is coming hard too. |
| biged |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 22:29:44
Next to speed in importance is "Bat Speed" . Both can be improved, but only so much. As a player ages the big strong kids with the long slow swings will find it difficult to catch up to the vastly improving fastball. What is the average fastball of 14u, maybe lower 60s? At 16u it improves to lower 80s. Therefor a batter must be able to swing the bat at 80 plus miles an our to keep up with a fastball that is equally as fast. If the batter's swing is slower than the pitch, they become guess hitters who must swing early in hopes of catching up with the pitch. This player cannot look fastball and adjust to off speed because they must decide early.
Both speed and bat speed are the determining factors that eventually become the demise of hopeful travel ball players. |
| AllStar |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 12:35:52
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
You better learn how to drive the gaps...
Absolutely true. And you better get some range at whatever position you play and you better get used to the longer throws.
Every year my son moved to a bigger field we went out the day after his season ended. He stood a couple steps behind 3rd and I stood a couple steps behind first and he got used to throwing on the bigger field.
And catching my throws on the second hop.  |
| seminole tony |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 10:32:26
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day.
OK. Ask Jurrjens if he'd rather have McClouth/Schafer in CF or Hinske.
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| ramman999 |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 09:00:41
You cant teach speed. You can teach hitting, fielding, but speed is speed. I can't say it's the end all be all because there is also athleticism. However....
The big slow kid that crushed the ball with a hot bat on a small field is going to struggle even more with the new reduced sweet spot... Long fly outs and pop ups , and can't beat out grounders..
The speedy line drive kids that find the holes will still find the holes - probably easier now because the field is bigger. Eventually, those kids are going to grow up, get better pop on the bat... I'll take my chances with a small speedy athletic team that manufactures runs and plays good defense. - you can always add a big boy to compliment a fast team..
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| rippit |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 07:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day.
OK. Ask Jurrjens if he'd rather have McClouth/Schafer in CF or Hinske.
Guys: The questions was posed NOT to have a slow vs fast debate. The question is "how are all these changes at once" going to affect the kid who has been using a smaller juiced bat on a smaller field who suddenly finds himself going from 12U to 14U because he was playing down his whole life and now only has 1 year before high school tryouts so he figures he'd better start playing with his grade...??
There has been so much asked about the effects of the bigger field on a player and his adjustment, playing up, playing down, bat size and BBCOR that I was just lumping it all together. Maybe I should have just saved the question for the 13U board. I thought MAYBE you might want to plan ahead though.
My opinion is that if a kid suddenly finds himself having to run 20 feet further, using a -5 minimum, BBCOR no less and was relying on bloop singles or slap hits through the infield because he was "fast", he may get a little frustrated come August 1st.
Oh, and ROE because some kid is fast and beats out a bobble doesn't help your batting average (unless Daddy is the book keeper)but along those same lines, a hard drive to right field where a slowpoke gets thrown out at first is just downright embarrassing.
There - equal time given to both sides of that debate.
You better learn how to drive the gaps... |
| AllStar |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 23:59:52
quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day.
OK. Ask Jurrjens if he'd rather have McClouth/Schafer in CF or Hinske. |
| PASSBALL |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 22:30:28
Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 20:42:40
quote:
Originally posted by TBBFAN
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Kyle Davies was absolutely the best 10U pitcher I remember at that age, and at 12 and 13 and then 14 and so on. And he wasn't the only 11U stud that ended up playing after HS.
Funny you should mention that, because I’ve always said he was the best 10u pitcher I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen a bunch of them). It was unreal how good he was at that age.
He is also another reason why I don't jump on the "all curveballs are evil" bandwagon. That man threw exactly 318 million hooks between 10-13 and he has never been the victim of a serious arm injury that I am aware of. He might have had one in the last few years but I haven't been following. Point I was trying to make was a majority of these guys you see on TV were probably pretty good at 11-12. I know there is the diamond in the rough that never picks up a bat until he was 17 I just don't believe that is the norm. |
| Scatbat |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 19:53:21
Dustin Pedroia = 5'8"...... Its Heart!!! That is the biggest measuring stick |
| TBBFAN |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 16:45:31
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Kyle Davies was absolutely the best 10U pitcher I remember at that age, and at 12 and 13 and then 14 and so on. And he wasn't the only 11U stud that ended up playing after HS.
Funny you should mention that, because I’ve always said he was the best 10u pitcher I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen a bunch of them). It was unreal how good he was at that age. |
| seminole tony |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 16:01:15
You can teach hitting, defense and baseball knowledge. You can't teach speed. My sons high school baseball coach says he can teach kids to hit but that speed gets them home. How many teams now in travel ball have kids that are over sized and a bit slower that the only place you can play them is pitching or first base?? May be a beast at the plate but is really hard to hide in the field. Kids will mature into a little faster ability/mobility but I'll take the singles w/speed over doubles/triples and stuck on base. At this age (13u-14u) the leaner, quicker players tend to outlive the bigger slower kids (hustle and speed make up for mistakes a lot of the time). This is just a generalization and there is always exceptions to this.
Those 300' bombs now will turn into 250' pop out in high school(especially w/BBCOR). It's the speed getting down the line and from base to base that impress more coaches now. Being able to move to second on a hit and run, being able to break up that double play at second, scoring on a deep sacrifice fly from third. That's speed. Not size.
The thing that nullifies this the most is a child's good work ethic and heart. This will make them succeed in anything they do. NO MATTER THE SIZE! IMHO.
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| TAZ980002 |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 15:41:47
There isn't much point in speculating what kid is going to be what size or what speed. They all grow at different times. Just enjoy their baseball days as long as they last. |
| rustybucket |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 14:48:06
Another good page on relating average player height to position.
http://sportsologist.com/baseball-player-height-by-position/ |
| justletemplay |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 14:39:13
Those height/weight concerns are of no importance, til the package is near it's completion. Some decisions are not ours to navigate thru. It's the guy writing the check, offering the scholarships, or a position for that matter. What ever skill set a team is looking for........you either will fit their bill or not....or another teams bill or not. Lots of kids walk on @ college b/c all the $ has been dished out and they become a preferred player........when/if the $ comes along. Atheletes are in many sized packages from Lemke, Kelly Johnson, Randy Johnson, Heyward, Fielder, etc. Somebody saw something that was appealing to that program. I know for a fact they are assessing the complete player profle.....grades, work ethic, strengths, weaknesses, leader, follower, glove, arm, footspeed, acuracy, power, average. What do you think they have the 20-80 scale? Why Sabermetrics? Why stats? Why scouting report cards. The attempt to remove subjectivity and emphasize objectivity. You still have to be able to hit. If a player isn't hitting they move down the line up, to the bench, back to lower level ball, rehab, etc. |
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