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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KoopsDad |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 14:13:23
This past weekend in the S-NIT, because of the score of our game, an ump actually told one of our hitters that if the ball was anywhere other than in the dirt that he would call it a strike and that he better swing. Another batter (struggling in a slump already) had two pitches literally in his eyes called strikes forcing him to swing at another poor pitch for fear of striking out, made an out, further frustrating him. When questioned about the "extreme" strike zone we were then forced to hit with, the ump took opposition and actually followed a coach back to the dugout telling him that "he had a lot to learn about baseball" as if calls this extreme were common practice. In ANOTHER game, after a 7-0 first inning, we were approached by an ump and told our strike zone would be expanded to keep the game from getting out of hand. Again, this was after the FIRST INNING in bracket play against a good team. Here is the question. Keeping in perspective that the ones really hurt in this situation are the kids at the plate when the fun of hitting is taken from them, SHOULD UMPS BE ALLOWED TO EXPAND (DRASTICALLY AT TIMES) THE STRIKE ZONE TO HELP KEEP THE SCORE UNDER CONTROL? Should the tourney director or head ump encourage the umps to keep the strike zone "by the book" regardless of score? Should a team be "penalized" for having a good day at the plate, for the hard work that was paying off at the plate, or for being that much better than their opponent? What are your thoughts? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| lownotside |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:28:22
In reference to mjones: I have never experienced umpires walking off the field inbetween innings! Inbetween games yes, but inbetween innings?? Hmmmmm...If this is your experience then you have a vaild complaint. Interesting. |
| lownotside |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:03:23
I agree with Tony, if the game is a total blow out how is it wrong for the umpire to call anything close a strike? The losing team is already having to give everything they have to go on the field and finish the game out, with their heads held high! I think just like the coaches who hold up their runners on such a situation, the umpires should use their best judgment (as they always should ) to end the game and leave the kids with some dignity. |
| davidh6265 |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 03:22:59
mjones u got quite upset over a simple question....if you scroll up you will see that I said an umpire should NOT change the strike zone except maybe in a similar situation stated by chris above. That is an extreme case but I can see expanding the zone a bit there. I'm not talking about 2 feet high and away but an inch or two for BOTH sides. Always for BOTH sides.
I notice umpire complaints/questions get responded to on here frequently and that there is an elevated amount of passion....why is that? Maybe, just MAYBE it's easier to blame the umpire than admit that you were out-coached or that your little Johnny isn't quite as good as little Jimmy on the other team.
By the way, I've been there on both sides of the fence and I feel ya when you get a bad umpire,,,,but bitching and whining isn't gonna change anything...it'll just make it worse.
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| mjones9226 |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 00:05:21
Chris not referring to taking a break, that is an obvious and understandable. I mean having plenty of time, and you cannot find the guy. This happened also at our last tourney. Again this was related to an umpire feeling the need to manage the game outside of his responsibilities. I think if other umps took the time to learn and prepare as it seems you do it would be great. Again, I certainly appreciate the guys who have the right approach, and the kids in mind when they call a game. All I ask is that it is done by the rules, as they are written. Thanks for what you do, and how sincerely you approach it. |
| mjones9226 |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 15:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by mjones9226
Chris, I do not hate anybody. I only stated what happened in response to another umpire demonstrating his discretion over the rulebook in his need to manage the length of the game. There are rules in place for that, and pointed out at our last tournament how irresponsible the umps were, and they were the root cause for the games getting off schedule. I appreciate god umpiring. Calls will be missed, but if a guy is decisive, hustles, you can tell if he is working hard. I appreciate the heck out of that. Problem is with the growth of travel baseball those guys are getting fewer and fewer between.
Meant to say good umpiring not god. Even though there are times when you might think |
| christheump |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 14:04:03
quote:
Originally posted by mjones9226
Chris, I do not hate anybody. I only stated what happened in response to another umpire demonstrating his discretion over the rulebook in his need to manage the length of the game. There are rules in place for that, and pointed out at our last tournament how irresponsible the umps were, and they were the root cause for the games getting off schedule. I appreciate god umpiring. Calls will be missed, but if a guy is decisive, hustles, you can tell if he is working hard. I appreciate the heck out of that. Problem is with the growth of travel baseball those guys are getting fewer and fewer between.
Sorry...I was referring to the second have of the post...about disappering between games.
Sometimes it is just nice to cram a cold hot-dog down your throat, guzzle a bottle of gatorade, and sit and cool off for just a few minutes, and maybe...just maybe go to the restroom for a quick whiz, provided you are not dehydrated. And thats on a good spring day.
It is not a glorified job, I accept the working conditions and the job hazards, angry fans, foul balls that always seem to find that one area that is not covered in armor, and I understand that parents and coaches get angry about running behind, as do the TD. Sometimes ol' blue just needs a few mins to collect his thoughts. This way when we do step back onto the field, we can give 100% to you, your coaches, and more importantly your boys.
Bad umpires usually experience a very short career, I just feel bad that teams may suffer. Im not saying I am the best, because I am far from it. I have been doing it for several years, and can say, I usually learn something new about umpiring each time. I know still ask my boss ump and partner questions.
But this is about Umps changing the strike zone....so I will digress... |
| SMASH |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 13:55:32
We had a game awhile back where the home plate umpire was impatient from the get go. From the pre-game warm-up right up to the meeting at home plate. When I asked him politely , "What is your rush?" His reply was that it is his job to try to get in 6 innings within the time limit. We all know with a 1 hour 4o minute time limit this rarely occurs. I responded that he gets paid the same amout regardless if the game goes 6 innings or time elapses so there is no reason to rush. This is where it gets ridiculous. We are the visitors , batting first. My leadoff hitter is putting on his batting gloves and preparing to hit. The umpire instructs the opposing pitcher to throw the first pitch without my hitter in the box. He calls it a strike (wasn't even in the strike zone). I guess he thought he was making a valid point??? He claimed we were stalling. Stalling in the top of the first??? I don't know where they find some of these guys. |
| mjones9226 |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 12:18:56
Chris, I do not hate anybody. I only stated what happened in response to another umpire demonstrating his discretion over the rulebook in his need to manage the length of the game. There are rules in place for that, and pointed out at our last tournament how irresponsible the umps were, and they were the root cause for the games getting off schedule. I appreciate god umpiring. Calls will be missed, but if a guy is decisive, hustles, you can tell if he is working hard. I appreciate the heck out of that. Problem is with the growth of travel baseball those guys are getting fewer and fewer between. |
| christheump |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 08:52:10
quote:
Originally posted by mjones9226
And one more thing while I am at it. The only reason any of the games I have seen this year have gotten behind schedule is the umpires. We waited 30 minutes both days just to get them to show up. They finally strolled in with no hurry like they were doing everyone a favor. Also dissapearing between games. If you are too old, or physically cannot handle calling that many games and stay on schedule, then you should join the umpires movement of rewriting the rulebook, and stay off the field. Now I feel better.
OUCH... sounds like you really hate us and we are the root of all evil in baseball. |
| christheump |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 08:17:39
Just for the record, I am not disagreeing with you parents and coaches. It was purely a hypothetical situation.. |
| rynoboots |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 08:02:52
we had an umpire call a strike last weekend that was at least a foot inside the batters box. we were up 19-0 and he apologized to the coach and my kid and said that he had to do it. |
| mjones9226 |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 01:07:51
And one more thing while I am at it. The only reason any of the games I have seen this year have gotten behind schedule is the umpires. We waited 30 minutes both days just to get them to show up. They finally strolled in with no hurry like they were doing everyone a favor. Also dissapearing between games. If you are too old, or physically cannot handle calling that many games and stay on schedule, then you should join the umpires movement of rewriting the rulebook, and stay off the field. Now I feel better. |
| mjones9226 |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 00:58:05
The comment made by the umpire above about feeling it is his responsinility to manage the game times???? First, as Spartan said these run rule games are the quicker games. Blowouts generally last 3 innings. This is an example of an umpire CHANGING the rules at his discretion. WRONG!! Not your job. Call the game and let the chips fall where they may. Your interferance could very well effect a seeding, and the outcome of a tournament. Read the posts, and it is obvious all the coaches and others involved, is to do what you are paid to do, player safety and enforce the rules as they are written. That is why there are time limits and run rules. (somebody already thought of this years ago) Why is that so hard to understand?? Maybe because too many of the umpires I see have a problem with wanting to control the situation. Be professional, and leave it at that. This is even more true and important since this is really related to younger aged travel ball. |
| highcheese |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 00:21:10
If you want "outcome based" baseball then go to another country that uses those rules. Umps should only call it as they see it and forget about feelings, time, going home early, etc. The California rule/mercy/time rules of today usually take care of all the hypothetical scenarios. Follow them. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 22:54:38
Since when do 22-0 or 18-1 games affect game times?? I guess it is possible to be tied through the 3rd then put 22 on, but usually these games last 3 sometimes 4 innings because of run rules. Saying this is saving time is just not the case in most situations. Call the game, it is what you are paid to do!! And btw even if the team is horrible and getting beaten unmercifully that team still paid an entry fee and deserves the time they paid for!! |
| excoach12 |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 21:57:46
How about instead of that, the ump goes to the HC of the losing team and asks him if he really wants to continue the game? Forfeit IS an option.
The ump should just call the game by the rules. Period.
If the HC of the winning team is trying to be so magnaminous he could tell his batter to swing at every pitch after it crosses home plate. Then every remaining inning is a 1-2-3 on 9 pitches. His pitcher continues to mow the others down and the game is accelerated to the end very rapidly without the umps having to do anything but call the game as they are supposed to. |
| mlmarine |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 14:52:56
Umpires should NEVER do this on their own accord.
Chris,
In your hypothetical, there's still one minor problem. It's in Pool Play, and depending on the tournament's rules, the runs scored, differential, etc. come into play regarding seeding the next level of play. Umpires should have no effect on that at all. So blue should acknowledge the coach for good sportsmanship, state the Pool Play argument, and then call the game consistently. The Manager can try to manipulate the runs etc for Pool Play seeding (some might argue strategic benefit); blue should just not be involved.
Take Pool Play (and any other situation that has causal effects) out of the equation, then I contend it would be OK. This is similar to the winning coach actively not stealing, moving players station to station after a hit, bunting, switch hitting, moving players around in the field … just taking it to the next level – giving blue permission to assist in his goal.
I see a HUGE difference between a Manager making a decision to be generous vs. an umpire making that decision.
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| northgwinnet |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:44:42
As an umpire, you will never put your integrity at risk if you call a ball a ball and a strike a strike. Time limits and run rules are there to deal with blow outs. If you change the zone to accommodate a game out of control, the focus now turns to you, the umpire. That is not where you want it to be. As an umpire, some games are long and tough, others are not so tough. Either way, if you remain consistent, regardless of the circumstances, the focus will never be on you. |
| davidh6265 |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:27:55
I'm an ump, and I say no, the umpire should NOT expand the strike zone except in a similar situation described by Chris (above).
With that said, in tournaments, we have more games to follow and keeping with the time schedule is VERY important. Otherwise, we may all be at the ballpark well past midnight.
I remember a tournament I was working last year for high school aged kids....the score was something like 20-1. The base umpire (30 year vet) signaled for me to expand the strike zone. I didn't call time out or anything but when I got a chance I asked the winning coach and he did not mind me expanding the strike zone. In a situation like that, you have to do what you have to do. The kids understood it too and were ok with it. |
| ripacad |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:46:19
Should an umpire ever be influenced by a coach, parents or spectators? |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:27:11
Your job is to call the game!! A ball is a ball a strike is a strike!! It is NEVER the umpires job to decide the winner/loser or score of a game...Regardless of what the 3rd base coach says |
| Outtahere |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:27:06
Pool play game Sat. afternoon @ Gerald Matthew in 11U division. Score is 10-2 in the 3rd...Ump walks over to our coach and tells him he is opening up the strike zone to speed the game along. BTW we were the team with 10 at this point. Right or wrong? |
| mjones9226 |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:25:01
Chris, I think even that brings too much subjective judgement into the game. Umpires are there to ensure the players safety, and enforce the rules, period. It is not there job to reinvent or loosen the rules. If a team finds themselves in that position, they should rethink entering a tournament, and learn a hard lesson. I say this because it is not always that black and white, and penalizes the player at the plate. Stick to the rules, and let the game take its course. |
| bballman |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:15:42
quote:
Originally posted by christheump
Can I ask a hypothetical question....say there is a last game in Pool Play on Saturday Night, game is a blow out, bottom of 3rd, Home winning, visiting pitcher is clueless like he has never pitched, balks 3-4 times in an inning, HC is 3BC, during defensive timeout, comes down to the plate to talk to his batter, and with catcher at the mound with the coach, looks directly at PU and says dont call the balks and he is OK with a generous strike zone...and then looks at the batter and tells him if its in the vicinity of the plate blue is gonna call it. PU can hear both sides parents begging for mercy. Opinions???
Doesn't matter. Just call the game. That is what you are paid to do. Lot's of good points on how this could effect seeding and such in previous posts. It's not an ump's job to try to get a game over early or anything else. Just to call the game. |
| G-Man |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:37:29
Im not talking 6,7,8,9 - o type games. I am talking games that I have seen where the score is 18-1 24-0 those type games. Games that you can look at and know they are over.
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
Some umpires will change the strike zone in a game where another team is getting blown out. I dont disagree with it. It would be nice if teams would take the stance to curb the slaugter but that isnt always the case. So sometimes umpires take it upon themselves to do what I believe is right. I know we have played for teams in the past that if we were blowing a team away the coach would have the kids either bunt the ball back toward the pitcher or have the right handed batters hit left handed.
In the younger age groups its the classy thing to do. In the older age groups if its not done your batters may find a few fastballs WAY INSIDE.
quote:
Originally posted by 6bomber
i agree Spartan4, you will run into teams who think they are ready to play up. most prove they can do it. occasionally it can get out of hand. IMO it is better for the kids on both teams that they know what are strikes. it does not help anyone to be forced to swing at bad pitches, rec. player or elite player.
I just don't agree with this. I have seen too many games that appear to be blow outs, only to have the losing team come back and win, or at least make it close. Especially at the older age groups, you can never count a win untill the game is over. At 13u, we were down in a semi-final game 8-0 in the 4th inning. Came back to win the game 9-8. I have seen HS games where a team is up by 5, 6 ,7, 8 runs, only to have the losing team come back to win - or make it close.
I really don't think the umpire should change what he is doing to favor either side. It is not the umps job to help either team. It is the umps job to call the game without bias. It's hard for me to believe that so many of you baseball guys are on the side of the umps being biased in any situation. Who is to say when that ump should start doing this? What if the ump chose to be biased towards one team or the other - and you didn't agree with when he started doing it? I think you would be up in arms about it. The umps should call the game the way it should be called regardless of the situation. Period.
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