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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| allaboutbaseball |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 21:00:42
Curious on everyone's thoughts. Does your team post player statistics on the team website (accessible only to team members via password)? Do you think there is an age where the kids are too young to post statistics? Obviously - as the kids near high school - they become very public.
Is 9u too young? Do the kids with low batting averages (or low fielding percentage) get discouraged? Or is this meant as a motivation tool?
Or are they posted by coaches to communicate to parents why their kids spend more time on the bench or bat lower in the batting order?
I would love to hear everyone's thoughts. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sportsfamily |
Posted - 02/08/2011 : 21:45:26
Stats are only good if they are kept correctly....Last year half way through the season I noticed that my son's were not what I remember and starting keeping myself. When you have a coach (a/k/a dad) keeping the book, he wants his son to shine a little brighter.....understand what I am saying? Also, when the boys start comparing themselves to others it can playing with their development. |
| CharlieHustle |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 10:43:44
I keep the book for our team and we use a stat called "OBE", which is on base % with errors. This stat is calculated just like "OBP" with the addition of ROE (reached on error) in the numerator. This stat removes the scorekeepers judgement from the equation. This stat is very useful because it is simply the percentage of the time that a player reaches base. No one can argue with this one.
Batting average is obviously highly dependent on the scorekeeper. One teams .400 average might be .500 or .300 with a different scorekeeper. Comparing averages on a given team is meaningful, but comparing averages with other teams averages is meaningless, unless the scorekeeper is the same. |
| 11UFAN |
Posted - 02/01/2011 : 07:55:43
at 10U and under, I think it makes sense to give a kid OBP credit on any close play as described by biged.
It never ceases to amaze me how many times I see a hit scored in MLB on a "judgement call". No need to be so militant in youth baseball, consistency is the key to good scorekeeping.
If your scorekeeper consistently scores all kids the same in similar situations you have a "good" scorekeeper. |
| SSBuckeye |
Posted - 01/31/2011 : 16:52:56
Biged, you are not alone. I would bet many people don't even realize it, because it seems non-intuitive to me. A couple of years ago, I even checked the formula Teamsnap was using, because I thought it was wrong. |
| biged |
Posted - 01/31/2011 : 14:54:35
#$%^*^%$#* now I have to back and change 10 yrs of stats. Did not know that errors did not count as on base. |
| Scorekeeper |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 20:15:33
"In many cases if the throw had been on line, the runner would have been safe regardless."
That would be a hit, per mlb scoring. |
| AllStar |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 19:24:51
quote:
Originally posted by biged
It is fielded cleanly however, due to the speed of the runner the throw is rushed and thus errant. In many cases if the throw had been on line, the runner would have been safe regardless. Also, the scorebook does not reflect that the poor throw was due to being rushed. This is why I also look at ob percentage.
Errors don't count as On-base in OBP. If you have one at bat and you get on base due to an error your OBP is .000. |
| biged |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 13:52:12
I meant left side of the diamond, but actually, anywehre. |
| biged |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 10:10:25
One thing I have always hated about stats is how speedy players often get the shaft. For example: A fast runner hits a ball to the right side of the diamond. It is fielded cleanly however, due to the speed of the runner the throw is rushed and thus errant. In many cases if the throw had been on line, the runner would have been safe regardless. Also, the scorebook does not reflect that the poor throw was due to being rushed. This is why I also look at ob percentage.
I was talking to a young harris coach and one thing they do/did was have a Quality At Bat Stat. The way this works is if a player had a good at bat but got out they still came away with a positive feeling. It works like this, If a player hits the ball hard and gets out it is considered a QAB. If a player gets a hit it is a QAB, RBI, Sac,walk, and hbp are all considered QAB. Often the players with the higher BA also had the higher QAB. Just another way to evaluate. |
| Scorekeeper |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 23:13:10
Stats don't mean much until the sample size gets near 100 At bats. The averages mean little after 3 or 4 or 8 games. Get up into 20 games and you might have a definite pattern established.
We have kept the stats since 8U, but never posted them online, they were available for coaches and any parent who requested their kids stats.
At year end, we provide all the parents with the official stats.
Stats (for 9U) now are kept as close to 'real' as possible. An error is an error. We do play up a lot into 10U and to be fair to some of the smaller kids we score their hits a lot more leniently than what we score the big hitters. The 4 or 5 big hitters (my son included) better get a clean hit if they want it scored that way. Because they are not outsized or outclassed and .450+ doesn't need any padding of the stats. Some of the smaller kids we've pushed up an age group get more leeway. It serves no purpose to have a kid batting .250 just because he is having trouble driving the ball thru the older infield. Leeway here and there with a .333 average looks and feels a lot more confident.
Think of it as real but fair to all. |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 18:19:59
biged well said. Every now and then I juggle the lineup and throw a stud down there to feast on fastballs. Coaches usually go right after the kids down there and sometime, you gotta make them pay the price :-) Good way to help a slumping kid too. |
| biged |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 09:38:20
Players lower in the order will get better pitches to hit. "Quality" pitchers will pitch differently to the 1,2,3 hitters than 7,8,9. Pitchers are less likely to go after a 1,2,3 hitter. They often pick at the corners and tend to bank on the batters aggressiveness to swing at less then ideal pitches. Conversely, pitchers will go after the 7,8,9 batters because these hitters usually are not as confident and are often looking to walk. And we all know the cardinal rule, "don't ever ever walk the bottom of the order". If the bottom of the order beats you, hats off to them. They hit in the bottom of the order for a reason. |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 23:08:27
thank you much |
| Stinger44 |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 09:14:12
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
One season, 4 of our 5 lower half hitters each had much better stats than 4 of the 5 top half hitters (all season long). None of us bottom half folks said a word. The line-up never changed. We were sub .500, and we all left afterward. The team dissolved 1 season later. We were the best rope pullers of all time!
quote:
Originally posted by Stinger44
I believe that any parent that looks at stats and then uses that information to address a coach about batting order is being short sighted and harmful to the team.
How many times have we seen champion teams 'upgrade' their roster only to fail the next year with 'better' talent, team chemistry destroyed. N o 'I' in team folks. I think the better life lesson taught is that pulling on the rope is not conditional.
Dismounting from soap-box in 3..2..1..
Well, I didn't say pull on the rope when a rabid badger was attached to the other end  |
| baldy87 |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 08:05:37
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
My only point is take the right stats into consideration. We had all of our stats, available for the world to see, available last year. They just need to be evaluated more in relation to what the situations were, and not just on face value. (BTW, the capitalization was to emphasize the differences between the statements, and not in a yelling manner.)
No harm at all, AE. And at the end, it sounds like we're saying the same thing. The emphasis probably should be on quality ABs and situational hitting. But, even when the emphasis is on those things, over the long haul (not 3 - 5 games, more like 100 plate appearances), the hitter who is doing his job will see his traditional stats improve, whether it's in average, RBIs, On Base Pct., or Sacrifices. Coaches will examine those things to make adjustments to line-ups. When coaches need to make those adjustments, I think it makes a lot more sense for those stats to be accessible by everyone, so that there is no mistaking why decisions were made.
And nastycurve was much more eloquent about writing about this stuff than I'll ever be. Well-written, nastycurve. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 22:50:02
My only point is take the right stats into consideration. We had all of our stats, available for the world to see, available last year. They just need to be evaluated more in relation to what the situations were, and not just on face value. (BTW, the capitalization was to emphasize the differences between the statements, and not in a yelling manner.) |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 18:09:12
I think a player controls how well he hits, he does not control how well the other team plays defense. Baseball is a game that is sometimes determined by very small margins. We've all seen what happenes when an outfielder gets a bad jump on a ball, what would've been a catch turns into fielded on a hop or a ball all the way to the fence.
sooner or later, the holes open up and if a kid is a quality ball player his stats will show it.
We are mainly coaches and involved parents here, has anyone had a stud who just had terrible stats? Has your best kid ever carried a bottom three batting or slugging percentage? Best pitcher highest era, most walks?
|
| nastycurve |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 18:05:20
There are two facts at hand here:
1. Stats are an important part of the game.
2. We obviously live in a world where the majority does not want to face reality, take responsibility or better themselves, and they have been teaching their children that this is ok.
Stats, for the most part, are a reflection of a players overall performance of one facet of the game(hitting, pitching, defense). They need to be looked at as a whole to understand a player, and that players role on the team. If you know about baseball, you should be able to understand that your lead off hitter will probably have a higher average, more stolen bases and more runs scored than your #7 hitter. If he doesn't than they need to switch spots, as the lead off position gets more at bats than anybody.
I think people need to be aware of their child's contribution to the team. If little johnny is hitting .167 with 5 rbi's midway through the season, then little johnny's parents need to get him some help, find a less competitive team-league/play something else. Or little johnny needs to work harder before or after practice, or something... not hide the stats so everybody is unaware of little johnny's deficiency.
I asked my 13 year old what he thought about stats being posted, and he said it was a good idea. That it gave them a way to compete with each other and to know who was in the lead in what categories. I asked him what if his stats weren't that great? He said then I need to do something about my play on the field if it embarrasses me.
As for people blaming bad scorekeepers, the score keeper keeps ALL the stats so if an at bat that results in a sac fly is incorrectly marked as an at-bat, its incorrectly marked for everyone that does it. If its a noticeable problem, talk to your score keeper and help them with the rules... If they don't know how to keep the book, then they probably shouldn't be doing it. |
| baldy87 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 15:53:21
Look - the guy says the batter can't control whether he hits .350 or not. I say, if not the batter - who can control whether he hits .350 or not? I don't think you answered my question - even with all the capitalized words. Who controls whether the batter hits .350 or not? To say it's not primarily the batter is to insult every hitter who ever hit .350. Inversing your argument would mean that the hitters who do hit .350 do so against weaker pitching, get better calls from the umpires, hit to weaker fielders who don't make difficult plays, and only bat in situations that don't require them to take a pitch, work a count, or bunt or slap a ball into play instead of driving it.
To me, this concept of focusing on a "quality at bat" is fine. Absolutely - you want a kid swinging at good pitches - putting the ball in play when there's a runner to be moved/scored - working a count. Obviously. All that said, they've only been keeping batting averages since they started playing baseball - and they do it for a reason. The examples given of the player in a given game who goes 1 for 3 versus the kid who goes 3 for 4 are the exception - not the rule. And over enough at bats, the rule is - I want the kid who hits the ball hard more consistently - that's the kid who's going to have a higher average.
Totally my opinion, and I've been wrong about many more important things than this, I'm sure. :) |
| beanball |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 14:44:13
These are all the reasons why stats should not be made public. Unfortunately parents and younger players only look at the batting average. There are way more important stats to look at and are beneficial to the coaches. For example Avg w/RISP. Or for pitchers Strike ratio vs. W/L or ERA. When coaches start to talk to some parents about these things they get the glazed look. Public stats are usually the downfall of the team chemistry. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 14:08:06
One season, 4 of our 5 lower half hitters each had much better stats than 4 of the 5 top half hitters (all season long). None of us bottom half folks said a word. The line-up never changed. We were sub .500, and we all left afterward. The team dissolved 1 season later. We were the best rope pullers of all time!
quote:
Originally posted by Stinger44
I believe that any parent that looks at stats and then uses that information to address a coach about batting order is being short sighted and harmful to the team.
How many times have we seen champion teams 'upgrade' their roster only to fail the next year with 'better' talent, team chemistry destroyed. N o 'I' in team folks. I think the better life lesson taught is that pulling on the rope is not conditional.
Dismounting from soap-box in 3..2..1..
|
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 12:38:09
baldy,
The player DOES NOT control the pitching. He DOES NOT control whether a fielder makes an outstanding play on a ball. He DOES NOT control if he crushes a ball right at a fielder. He DOES NOT control the strike zone called by the umpire. He DOES NOT control what plays the coach calls during his AB.
He DOES control swinging at the right pitch when he see's it. He DOES control not being indecisive when he swings the bat. He DOES control running hard down the baseline. He DOES control executing the play the coach calls. Those are the things they have to focus on. |
| Gwinnett |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 12:17:48
The team were on now does a combination of both, stats and hitting production sheet. The coach focuses on quality at bats from his hitting sheet. The sheet is like a scoring system. This way even if your average wasn't the highest you could have had the most quality at bats. Not a peep from the parents. As far as the stats, if there is a disagreement the parents vote right then or the coach has the last say. This system keeps everybody happy! And for those who might still disagree then just do your own stats on your son, then you can do whatever you want. Harmony is good for the team! |
| baldy87 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 11:27:21
"A player cannot control whether he hits .350 ...." ???????? If the player doesn't control that, who does? I'm sorry, but I don't understand that one at all. |
| Gwinnett |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:54:45
Just some of the problems we had when stats were'nt posted:
1) Coachs son was the best at EVERYTHING!
2) Talking about any player was just an opinion. For this matter anyone on the team could have had the highest average(on base), least errors, best pitching depending on who you asked. Heck, even the team bully could be the best at everything.
3) All these players believed they didn't need to practice extra because they already were studs.
4) NO one learns accoutability.
5) Lots of INTITLMENTS!
6) Super stubs don't have a clearer idea of where to improve.
7) Parents getting pissed off because they really don't know whats going on with there son.
8) Parents with BIG egos always talking about how there son is the best at everything.
9) Kids questioning WHY there are no stats to look at. Yes, there are a lot of smart kids playing ball that truly understand stats and would like to know them. Not just kids with big "egos".
I will admit there are probably kids and parents that could care less about stats. That's great then they just don't have to look at them and that solves everyones problem. For the rest of the team they can use them as they wish. If done correctly, stats don't lie! This is how the game of baseball is measured like it or not. |
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