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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/25/2019 : 10:05:40
For some reason people are stuck on something with holding their kid back a grade for some sort of advantage. I think this has gotten way out of hand and schools should not allow it unless the kid has failed a grade. There is no advantage is everyone is holding back. You just end up right back where you are to begin with. Keep this in mind, while people are hold their kids back for some sort of advantage there is a 20yr old Dominican playing in the world series and your kid will graduate HS at 19. Zero advantage! |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Punishers |
Posted - 11/23/2019 : 19:26:15
No issues if it is legit. Don't drink, but thanks for the offer. |
| NWbaseballscouting |
Posted - 11/22/2019 : 11:45:56
I agree with RUSemipro's post above. The real issue is when parents of really good athletes do it in 8th grade only. I've seen it time and time again when a stud 8th grader is all of a sudden playing 14U for the 2nd straight year even though he is a year older than everyone on the field with him. Yes he dominates but who gives a you know what.
Lots of kids are held back early around kindergarten/1st grade because of early birthday and/or issues with reading, etc. and that is normal. But when Little Johnny is SS and his high school has a stud senior SS so his parents reclassify him so he won;t have to sit as a freshmen it is gaming the system, by definition, and cheating by practice.
Punishers needs to realize it is legit in some circumstances but georgiabaseball13 needs to realize it is complete BS in almost every situation involving a repeat of the 8th grade. And then you guys need to go have a beer. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 11/13/2019 : 13:56:26
I largely agree with the "to each his own" mentality. I completely agree with parents holding their kids back who are right on the age cusp and may not be as mentally or physically mature as their peers socially, academically, or playing "up," potentially resulting in multiple issues that may have nothing to do with baseball. I do not agree with repeating a grade if you are mature, a good student, and are doing it strictly to pad your son's stats or hoping he gets bigger. I feel this is unfair to the child because anything can happen in the next 4 years and let's say your son decides he is no longer interested in sports (it happens!), or God forbid has a career ending injury of some sort. In this case he now has to explain to prospective universities from an academic standpoint why he is beginning his freshman year at almost 20 years old and why he repeated a grade when he was an excellent student. You may get an extra year of being a stud and great stats at say 14 or 15, but by 16 they are all pretty much well into or done with puberty and they will end up where they would have ended up on the spectrum any way, albeit a year later. Am I wrong? There are plenty of late bloomers who rise to the top their jr year when it really counts, so I'm not sure I see the advantage. But all that said, if it's the PLAYER'S desire (and his alone with full disclosure of the possible pitfalls) then there's nothing wrong with him making that choice I suppose. I just wonder in those circumstances how many kids would really make that choice, or would instead do it to please their parent. |
| oldschool22 |
Posted - 11/04/2019 : 11:17:08
I agree with georgiabaseball13. There are a myriad reasons why parents make the decisions they do regarding their kids’ baseball development. I recall being lambasted by well-meaning, but uninformed folks when I made the decision to have my 12-year-old play up two years at 14U. My decision was predicated by the fact that he was a strong-armed middle-infielder and I believed that getting him on the big fields early would be beneficial for him defensively. The first few months were very difficult as he struggled with BBCOR at 12. We had to play at a much lower level and I was criticized for taking him out of the “elite” circuit. But when he turned 13, we played up only one year and the following year he played his age. He is now very successful in a high-Majors organization.
I now receive a fair amount of unsolicited advice regarding our second child who is a pitcher because we allow him to throw with a very high pitch count. Again, we have our reasons and it is OUR business.
My point is, we have reasons for our decisions and whether or not they were sound decisions, they were OUR decisions. I cannot fathom publicly criticizing or even dispensing advice to other parents without being asked for it. We all have our own paths for our children and are accountable or our own choices. If someone believes it is beneficial to play their child up or down, it is entirely their prerogative to do so and criticizing them is highly presumptuous. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/30/2019 : 11:38:23
Asking? Request DENIED. Speculate all you want. No obligation to answer your request.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
Yeah, yeah, yeah - your kid plays up an age and majors. We likely will never know if this is true or not but I've never called out your kid nor have I discussed whether my kid plays down, level, or up.
What I keep asking for and what you keep ignoring and failing to address is WHY you care so much? You simply are a sore loser that wants to stick their nose in other peoples business. It is not your concern what other parents do with their child.
If they are going outside of a given sanctioning bodies rules then yes you should address that and call those people out. If you don't like a given sanctioning bodies rules that allow this then simply don't allow your team/child to play that sanctioning body. Otherwise you should probably keep your mouth shut about what others do with their own kid and what their reasons are - you likely don't understand the full situation
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
My kid has always played up a age at the major level. Playing with kids in his same grade and not holding back to beat up on younger, weaker kids for a $2 medal that means nothing. Frankly, I think he is just an average player with speed and a high IQ for the game no matter what others may say how good he is. It's all about being challenged and forced to compete in a different environment. You are a product of your environment anyway. If you came from an environment of crooks and con-men. Chances are, you will be the same. Why don't you try it and see if your kid can adapt to playing in a different environment with older kids unless you are scared?
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
Jackets96 - I understand that argument. I'll state once again - I haven't said I agree with it - I just kept asking why Punishers felt so strongly. He apparently isn't worried about the safety. He openly admits his kid is "playing up" and always has so he already knows the competition likely will be bigger and stronger. His child is so amazing he can handle all that so I'm still curious why he/she has so much problem with it. Punishers refuses to answer that...mostly likely because he doesn't like getting his butt beat by teams that use these players vs. just keeping his mouth shut and developing and getting better or maybe playing the top level in his own age group.
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| Punishers |
Posted - 10/30/2019 : 08:57:21
He could play the age below by the cutoff rules, but plays up with his grade and has even played they next yr up. If he was held back a grade, he could play 2 yrs below where he is now, but we are not chasing wins at youth level.
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
Wait ... your kid plays up, or he plays with his grade?
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
My kid has always played up a age at the major level. Playing with kids in his same grade and not holding back to beat up on younger, weaker kids for a $2 medal that means nothing. Frankly, I think he is just an average player with speed and a high IQ for the game no matter what others may say how good he is. It's all about being challenged and forced to compete in a different environment. You are a product of your environment anyway. If you came from an environment of crooks and con-men. Chances are, you will be the same. Why don't you try it and see if your kid can adapt to playing in a different environment with older kids unless you are scared?
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
Jackets96 - I understand that argument. I'll state once again - I haven't said I agree with it - I just kept asking why Punishers felt so strongly. He apparently isn't worried about the safety. He openly admits his kid is "playing up" and always has so he already knows the competition likely will be bigger and stronger. His child is so amazing he can handle all that so I'm still curious why he/she has so much problem with it. Punishers refuses to answer that...mostly likely because he doesn't like getting his butt beat by teams that use these players vs. just keeping his mouth shut and developing and getting better or maybe playing the top level in his own age group.
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| georgiabaseball13 |
Posted - 10/30/2019 : 08:01:03
Yeah, yeah, yeah - your kid plays up an age and majors. We likely will never know if this is true or not but I've never called out your kid nor have I discussed whether my kid plays down, level, or up.
What I keep asking for and what you keep ignoring and failing to address is WHY you care so much? You simply are a sore loser that wants to stick their nose in other peoples business. It is not your concern what other parents do with their child.
If they are going outside of a given sanctioning bodies rules then yes you should address that and call those people out. If you don't like a given sanctioning bodies rules that allow this then simply don't allow your team/child to play that sanctioning body. Otherwise you should probably keep your mouth shut about what others do with their own kid and what their reasons are - you likely don't understand the full situation
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
My kid has always played up a age at the major level. Playing with kids in his same grade and not holding back to beat up on younger, weaker kids for a $2 medal that means nothing. Frankly, I think he is just an average player with speed and a high IQ for the game no matter what others may say how good he is. It's all about being challenged and forced to compete in a different environment. You are a product of your environment anyway. If you came from an environment of crooks and con-men. Chances are, you will be the same. Why don't you try it and see if your kid can adapt to playing in a different environment with older kids unless you are scared?
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
Jackets96 - I understand that argument. I'll state once again - I haven't said I agree with it - I just kept asking why Punishers felt so strongly. He apparently isn't worried about the safety. He openly admits his kid is "playing up" and always has so he already knows the competition likely will be bigger and stronger. His child is so amazing he can handle all that so I'm still curious why he/she has so much problem with it. Punishers refuses to answer that...mostly likely because he doesn't like getting his butt beat by teams that use these players vs. just keeping his mouth shut and developing and getting better or maybe playing the top level in his own age group.
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| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 21:41:54
I think for those doing it Late in the game (Middle School) you are likely right in your assessment.
However those doing it early on, pre-k, K or elementary school, it most likely has nothing to do with gaining an advantage, but more what is right for the child.
There definitely is an entitlement theory out there, and it's not just in sport either.
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Its all akin to the college acceptance scandal in the news for certain high profile universities. But instead of an elite school acceptance, the carrot is the coveted baseball(or other sport) scholarship spot.
Its just another form of rigging the system for ones specific benefit at the expense of some other not as connected or financed peer.
The currency used isn't some $250k+ booster check, instead its the currency of extra time and metric comparisons to lesser level more friendlier data.
Results? Less about competition, every day less and less about competition, more and more about how to work the system for your schemed up benefit. Entitlement. the "I'm entitled, you're not" mentality.
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| oneZone |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 20:41:48
Wait ... your kid plays up, or he plays with his grade?
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
My kid has always played up a age at the major level. Playing with kids in his same grade and not holding back to beat up on younger, weaker kids for a $2 medal that means nothing. Frankly, I think he is just an average player with speed and a high IQ for the game no matter what others may say how good he is. It's all about being challenged and forced to compete in a different environment. You are a product of your environment anyway. If you came from an environment of crooks and con-men. Chances are, you will be the same. Why don't you try it and see if your kid can adapt to playing in a different environment with older kids unless you are scared?
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
Jackets96 - I understand that argument. I'll state once again - I haven't said I agree with it - I just kept asking why Punishers felt so strongly. He apparently isn't worried about the safety. He openly admits his kid is "playing up" and always has so he already knows the competition likely will be bigger and stronger. His child is so amazing he can handle all that so I'm still curious why he/she has so much problem with it. Punishers refuses to answer that...mostly likely because he doesn't like getting his butt beat by teams that use these players vs. just keeping his mouth shut and developing and getting better or maybe playing the top level in his own age group.
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| Punishers |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 16:59:22
My kid has always played up a age at the major level. Playing with kids in his same grade and not holding back to beat up on younger, weaker kids for a $2 medal that means nothing. Frankly, I think he is just an average player with speed and a high IQ for the game no matter what others may say how good he is. It's all about being challenged and forced to compete in a different environment. You are a product of your environment anyway. If you came from an environment of crooks and con-men. Chances are, you will be the same. Why don't you try it and see if your kid can adapt to playing in a different environment with older kids unless you are scared?
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
Jackets96 - I understand that argument. I'll state once again - I haven't said I agree with it - I just kept asking why Punishers felt so strongly. He apparently isn't worried about the safety. He openly admits his kid is "playing up" and always has so he already knows the competition likely will be bigger and stronger. His child is so amazing he can handle all that so I'm still curious why he/she has so much problem with it. Punishers refuses to answer that...mostly likely because he doesn't like getting his butt beat by teams that use these players vs. just keeping his mouth shut and developing and getting better or maybe playing the top level in his own age group.
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| Jackets96 |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 14:20:36
PG and others allow for an exception to the age rule by grade so it can help in travel too. The cutoff for 13U is 2025 OR born after 5/1/2006, but if you in 7th grade, you can be as early as 5/1/2005 - an entire year older.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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| georgiabaseball13 |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 13:49:09
Jackets96 - I understand that argument. I'll state once again - I haven't said I agree with it - I just kept asking why Punishers felt so strongly. He apparently isn't worried about the safety. He openly admits his kid is "playing up" and always has so he already knows the competition likely will be bigger and stronger. His child is so amazing he can handle all that so I'm still curious why he/she has so much problem with it. Punishers refuses to answer that...mostly likely because he doesn't like getting his butt beat by teams that use these players vs. just keeping his mouth shut and developing and getting better or maybe playing the top level in his own age group. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 13:43:35
GHSA RULE -1.30 - AGE To be eligible to participate in interscholastic activities, a student must not have reached his 19th birthday prior to May 1st, preceding his year of participation.
Good luck to all those who will be turning 19 their senior year before May 1st. |
| oneZone |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 13:32:37
Nope, you're not wrong! That was my point earlier: I think more often than not, the kids who are "playing up" are either not doing it for the right reasons and/or not going to get the right results and/or not really good enough to be doing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Jackets96
I also don't agree with Renegade44 that "playing up" in age is the only way to get better competition or challenge yourself. That's only true if you can play on at least the same level of team in the higher age group, whcih again is mostly kids 1+ years older. I would guess that playing on the highest level teams in an age group gives at least as good, if not better competition than playing the next level down in the age group up. Maybe I'm wrong there.
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| Jackets96 |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 13:15:51
Georgiabaseball13 - a reason some people care is SAFETY! With the age exception for grade holdbacks, the tournament organizations are allowing kids to play against kids potentially up to 2 years younger. Nobody needs a big 15yr old swinging a drop 5 Zen against a bunch of 13yr olds, in some cases from 54ft away.
This is also a reason why some who have May-Jul birthday kids play "on-age" instead of "on grade". They are already up to a year younger than many in their grade, but with the re-classing and age exception, they could be up to 2 years younger than kids playing in an age group. Before and during puberty that's a big difference!
I also don't agree with Renegade44 that "playing up" in age is the only way to get better competition or challenge yourself. That's only true if you can play on at least the same level of team in the higher age group, whcih again is mostly kids 1+ years older. I would guess that playing on the highest level teams in an age group gives at least as good, if not better competition than playing the next level down in the age group up. Maybe I'm wrong there.
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| Critical Mass |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 13:04:21
Playing up has always been the standard when your son is better than kids in his age group or you feel he can play at that level and get better. I rarely saw this except with elite teams such as EC back in the day. I had a friend who seriously considered holding his son back fro athletics prior to HS but did not. He had a late birthday (august) like my son. We, on the other hand due to my wife being an educator decided to hold our son back before he started school (maturity) and well before we had any idea he would play any sport. It worked out. He is still undersized today but plays MILB ball and may get the up this year. It feels like most hold backs are parent related instead of kid related. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 12:18:03
If it was all about wins for me. These are the type of kids I would be looking for. The Oldest, Strongest, and eligible by travel ball requirements.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Now you see my point!
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
As far as I know, LL never went by grade, only by age. What they did was move the age cutoff date to Sept. 1 instead of May 1 (I think). That put the cutoff date in line with their season, so now you won't see a 13-yo playing in the LL World Series. This seems smart.
Why doesn't travel ball do something similar? And if they're going to determine eligibility by grade OR age, there should be a max. age restriction in place to prevent that 14-yo 6th grader from playing 12U (because that's ridiculous!).
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
There is a grade option in travel ball. Example: A 14yo in the 6th grade can play 12u. Little League cured that when they changed the age cutoff date to Sept 1st regardless of grade. In travel ball the other venues refuse to do the same in fear of loss of revenue.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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| Punishers |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 12:13:18
Now you see my point!
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
As far as I know, LL never went by grade, only by age. What they did was move the age cutoff date to Sept. 1 instead of May 1 (I think). That put the cutoff date in line with their season, so now you won't see a 13-yo playing in the LL World Series. This seems smart.
Why doesn't travel ball do something similar? And if they're going to determine eligibility by grade OR age, there should be a max. age restriction in place to prevent that 14-yo 6th grader from playing 12U (because that's ridiculous!).
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
There is a grade option in travel ball. Example: A 14yo in the 6th grade can play 12u. Little League cured that when they changed the age cutoff date to Sept 1st regardless of grade. In travel ball the other venues refuse to do the same in fear of loss of revenue.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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| oneZone |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 11:03:32
I think the benefits of appropriately playing up are pretty easy to agree on. I just don't think that reality matches what you describe below.
You say, "Why wouldn't every competitive player want to play up???" But how do you define "competitive"? Because in my experience, only a very small percentage of travel ball players are actually good enough to appropriately play up.
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Play up why?
Shoot that's easy or should be an easy question to answer. Why wouldn't every competitive player want to play up??? That's the real question.
Play up because you intend to play up at every level your reach. Play up because you intend to test your skills against older, stronger, faster players so you can move and think faster. Play up because mistakes matter more each year and its time to learn that on field mistakes have consequences. Play up because that's where you go each year. UP! Play up because you love the competition and the challenge.
Play up cause frankly its better baseball, and most importantly you only get better at competing when you play on the edge. Play up because you are confident in what you do.
Now tell me? Why play down or at age? Are you a real player or just chasing more favorable measurables?
See there's another way this country club travel baseball sport has gone wrong. Win or go home. The opponent isn't the radar gun or any measurable you gain from staying a year back. Scoreboard. Win or go home.
And to do that each and every year beyond 7th grade means you better be challenging yourself to the limit. Not finding a way to play down.
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| oneZone |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 10:23:04
As far as I know, LL never went by grade, only by age. What they did was move the age cutoff date to Sept. 1 instead of May 1 (I think). That put the cutoff date in line with their season, so now you won't see a 13-yo playing in the LL World Series. This seems smart.
Why doesn't travel ball do something similar? And if they're going to determine eligibility by grade OR age, there should be a max. age restriction in place to prevent that 14-yo 6th grader from playing 12U (because that's ridiculous!).
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
There is a grade option in travel ball. Example: A 14yo in the 6th grade can play 12u. Little League cured that when they changed the age cutoff date to Sept 1st regardless of grade. In travel ball the other venues refuse to do the same in fear of loss of revenue.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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| Punishers |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 09:28:38
I've seen some so called major teams get beat up by grandslam only teams. Point is moot. If it was all about wins, then our style of play would not only be to beat you but to beat up on you as well. That's when development does not matter and neither the safety of the opposing team players. Then all those chest thumping winning parents will be saying "they are just kids" when little Johnny gets spiked a few times or see a few pitches come at that melon, and that's just a small taste. Call me dirty, but we won and that will be all that matters. I just havent sold my soul for a few false wins at the youth level. |
| Renegade44 |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 00:05:31
Play up why?
Shoot that's easy or should be an easy question to answer. Why wouldn't every competitive player want to play up??? That's the real question.
Play up because you intend to play up at every level your reach. Play up because you intend to test your skills against older, stronger, faster players so you can move and think faster. Play up because mistakes matter more each year and its time to learn that on field mistakes have consequences. Play up because that's where you go each year. UP! Play up because you love the competition and the challenge.
Play up cause frankly its better baseball, and most importantly you only get better at competing when you play on the edge. Play up because you are confident in what you do.
Now tell me? Why play down or at age? Are you a real player or just chasing more favorable measurables?
See there's another way this country club travel baseball sport has gone wrong. Win or go home. The opponent isn't the radar gun or any measurable you gain from staying a year back. Scoreboard. Win or go home.
And to do that each and every year beyond 7th grade means you better be challenging yourself to the limit. Not finding a way to play down. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 21:46:27
There is a grade option in travel ball. Example: A 14yo in the 6th grade can play 12u. Little League cured that when they changed the age cutoff date to Sept 1st regardless of grade. In travel ball the other venues refuse to do the same in fear of loss of revenue.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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| oneZone |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 21:41:44
I included both individual players and entire teams playing up, which is why I mentioned so-so performances (players) and losses (teams).
My point is that many teams/players play up for reasons other than legitimate development reasons. If your kid "plays up" on a AA or a lower AAA team with a .500 winning percentage in Grand Slam tourneys, you aren't doing him any development favors. The higher AAA and majors teams a year younger would be better competition. I think one reason people do this is to be able to brag that their kid not only plays travel ball, but they play UP! And then when their kid ends up in the middle of the pack, it's OK because they have the convenient excuse that everybody else is a year older. (Some of these people MIGHT also obsess over those who hold their kid back to gain an advantage, too.)
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
My guess for playing up, is an exceptional athlete dominating at the highest levels in their age group and not being challenged OR trying to grade level before high school. Outside of that it is likely parental chest thumping or rose colored glasses, hey look at my kid.
As far as wins or losses, Baseball is a team game, and that ignorant to think a player, playing up or down will add to the win or loss totals.
All decisions should be based on what is best for that particular players development, not wins, not losses, not stats. It's a similar argument would I rather my kid hit .700 at AA, .450 at AAA or .325 playing a legit Majors schedule? You can't compare them as they are vastly different environments, pitching, defense the whole gammit.
To me at the end of the day, I would say overwhelmingly it is the Parents making these decisions, and most likely on some dream/vision they are having about their kids future.
My two cents: Play the appropriate age group, play your appropriate skill level (Rec, AA, AAA, Major) and work on development and fundamentals, if it's there, it's there if it's not it won't be. In the end as they mature no matter what the parent do, it eventually is on each player to do the extra work to be successful.
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
I sometimes wonder, how many of the people who brag about "playing up" are doing so mostly to excuse so-so performances and losses? With the vast majority of teams out there being AAA or well below, very few kids/teams really have to play up to find a level of competition that challenges them and helps them develop. I think some people play their kids up just to cover up what would happen if they tried to compete against the top competition at their own age level.
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| wareagle |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 20:45:59
Lots of “mind readers” on here, pretending to know why people do different things. Do what you feel Is best for your child, and let others do what they feel is right for them. |
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