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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 12:17:53
Guys, Papa has read all the EC vs 643 stuff on this forum and although I find it very interesting I would like to comment that the upcoming 12U 643 program with 3 teams and all of the 12U EC Cobb teams since this group was 9U has never won this division. I have as much respect for these programs as anyone out there but I would like to get your opinion on what is the upside or downside or advantages and disadvantages to teams like the Bandits, Sandtown, and even Team Georgia that have consistently been considered to be the top 3 teams in this division for a while now. Is there a difference in philosophy, instruction, or coaching between the East Cobbs, 643, and the Bandits, Sandtown,and Team Georgia. I will say one thing that I believe might fire you East Cobb Maniacs (Hulk Hogan style and not meant to be inflammatory) and you 643 Maniacs and that is while you are having these huge tryouts to get better that Sandtown and the Bandits have not been sitting on the beach under an umbrella. Both of these teams have changed little but the changes should be huge and should make both strong teams even stronger. You had better load your gun and get ready for the 2011 Gunfight at the Georgia Corral because Papa expects it to be a wide open no holds barred fight. Remember we are all 0-0 right now and none of us have anything to brag or complain about. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Steel-Will |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 21:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by Shut Out
how did this conversation degrade to coach pitch. Are we really that hurting for something better to be doing with our time.....
It's not so much about coach pitch but more about good baseball being played out of particular parks. It's been my observation that the Sandtown Park, even though we hadn't played out of there in several years, has had a number of State champs & WS winning teams across multiple ages groups from the Sandtown Red Sox mention initially in the discussion down to the 2010 7u Sandtown / Atlanta Angels who haven't lost a tournament in their age for two years now and have only lost 1 game in their age group. As I said, I understand they'll be playing up at 9u for 2011 and I'm anticipating them playing 700 ball. We'll see. |
| Mike Corbin |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 21:01:37
I can't believe that their are nearly enough 7u "KID Pitch" teams out there to play much of a schedule! I hated it when our kids started pitching at 9u let alone 7u....WOW!!! To each his own but to me that is WAYYYYYYYY to young to have kids pitching!
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| Shut Out |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 16:12:49
how did this conversation degrade to coach pitch. Are we really that hurting for something better to be doing with our time..... |
| homerunking |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 13:38:59
Will- I am not saying REAL coach pitch is in DD, I am just saying that at that age most players are playing DD..Now if there was no DD at this age you would see more travel type teams playing this age group.. I take my hats off to all great teams that do well.. Time will always tell how great a team is in the long run.. Next year at 9u will be a step up for all DD teams that play travel. Some will do well others will not.. |
| Steel-Will |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 21:42:17
HomeRunKing - Funny thing, when my team was 6u and won the USSSA WS, AABC State, USSSA State, we were told the same thing: "Real coach pitch is played in Dizzy Dean." And while we never got our hands on the DD WS or state champs, we did play the runner-ups and 3rd place team and waxed them with no Trouble!
Problem is history does not support this idea that a DD WS winner is stronger than a USSSA 6u WS winner.
This years 9u Yarddog Blk who went 32-0 at 6u notwithstanding, I'll continuing to use the 2010 7u Sandtown Atlanta Angels, who won EVERY 7u event and went 12-14 vs 8u teams. This is not a coach pitch record but ALL kid pitch. They were 15 runs better than every other 7u team kid pitch! That’s a coach’s pitch differential in kid pitch!
For 2011, they should be playing 9u ball so those 8u DD teams moving up to 9u will get a 1st hand look at what happens when a dominate team STAYS together and continues to develop.
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| homerunking |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 17:03:04
quote:
Originally posted by Steel-Will
I think your statement, "apples to oranges" is correct. I'm not comparing to ECB or anybody else who doesn't have teams 6 thru 8, only thoses that do. And those that do, have been getting dominated by Sandtown. Your right, anybody can rack up points by playing, but I'm not talking about playing, I'm talking about domination! The Sandtown Angels have one EVERY USSSA tournament in the age groups at 6u and 7u; EVERY SINGLE ONE. They amass point because they win not just show up. :)
Place USSSA Start Stature Tournament Name Event Wins Loses
Points Date Division/Class
1 75 3/7/2009 Qualifier Director's Cup Qualifier BBboys6U 4 0
1 300 3/13/2009 Super NIT Atlanta Super NIT BBboys6U 2 0
1 300 3/20/2009 Super NIT Atlanta Super NIT BBboys6U 5 0
3 90 4/17/2009 NIT Clash of the Champions NIT BBboys7U-CP-AAA 1 3
3 45 4/24/2009 Qualifier Henry Co. Spring Slugfest BBboys7U-CP-AAA 2 2
5 140 5/2/2009 NIT Director's Cup Championship BBboys7U-CP-AAA 0 3
5 30 5/15/2009 Qualifier Global Sports Baseball BBboys7U-CP-AAA 0 3
1 300 5/22/2009 NIT Southeastern Wood Bat NIT - South D BBboys6U 4 0
1 100 5/29/2009 State Level 2 Sub State - Stockbridge BBboys6U 4 0
1 100 6/12/2009 State Level 2 Sub State - Peachtree City BBboys6U 4 0
1 650 7/6/2009 World Series USSSA Coach Pitch World Series BBboys6U 8 1
At this age most of the better parks play DIZZY DEAN baseball..So there is no way to say who is the best..There are teams that play DIZZY DEAN at this age that are very good..Maybe the park should become part of DIZZY DEAN and play there World Series where there were over 40 teams this year in the 7u age group and over 60 in the 6u. These were teams from Tenn,AL,Ga,Miss and Fl..and a GA team won both. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 09:58:41
Thanks baseballnutz: Papa is a firm believer that you attract the bears with honey. Works every time. You know when you have a passionate topic going by the responses and this one has gotten quite a few. It is really a nice topic to talk about as we all are constantly searching for a better way to get it done and I think all of these programs have some really good points that can be built on and made better and I think that is what you are seeing with the 643 program. They are only taking a good thing and trying to make it even better. |
| baseballnutz |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 09:25:30
Papa, I must tip my hat to your sir. With all the talk of EC tryouts and 643 pickups and no talk of your beloved Bandits (of which I am a huge fan) just must of been killing you. And with one simple post you've got over 20 responses in just a couple of days. Genius! |
| Steel-Will |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 22:53:33
I think your statement, "apples to oranges" is correct. I'm not comparing to ECB or anybody else who doesn't have teams 6 thru 8, only thoses that do. And those that do, have been getting dominated by Sandtown. Your right, anybody can rack up points by playing, but I'm not talking about playing, I'm talking about domination! The Sandtown Angels have one EVERY USSSA tournament in the age groups at 6u and 7u; EVERY SINGLE ONE. They amass point because they win not just show up. :)
Place USSSA Start Stature Tournament Name Event Wins Loses
Points Date Division/Class
1 75 3/7/2009 Qualifier Director's Cup Qualifier BBboys6U 4 0
1 300 3/13/2009 Super NIT Atlanta Super NIT BBboys6U 2 0
1 300 3/20/2009 Super NIT Atlanta Super NIT BBboys6U 5 0
3 90 4/17/2009 NIT Clash of the Champions NIT BBboys7U-CP-AAA 1 3
3 45 4/24/2009 Qualifier Henry Co. Spring Slugfest BBboys7U-CP-AAA 2 2
5 140 5/2/2009 NIT Director's Cup Championship BBboys7U-CP-AAA 0 3
5 30 5/15/2009 Qualifier Global Sports Baseball BBboys7U-CP-AAA 0 3
1 300 5/22/2009 NIT Southeastern Wood Bat NIT - South D BBboys6U 4 0
1 100 5/29/2009 State Level 2 Sub State - Stockbridge BBboys6U 4 0
1 100 6/12/2009 State Level 2 Sub State - Peachtree City BBboys6U 4 0
1 650 7/6/2009 World Series USSSA Coach Pitch World Series BBboys6U 8 1
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| oldmanmj |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 21:51:49
Apples and Oranges for the Sandtown group. They do not compete at the Elite level for the 10U and up age groups. Having played in the AABC and finishing 2nd in the WS, not one team we faced in the US and outside, except for the Puerto Rico team, was not better than a good AA team. ECB and most other elite programs do not do 6 thru 8U so how can you compare. And anyone can rack up USSSA points if that is majority of what you play during the year. I haven't seen a Sandtown team play regularly against any Major Elite teams in Georgia. I also believe as proven many times this year in all age groups, anyone can beat anyone on any given day. I also tip my hat to the great coaches and program at Sandtown and what they do every year with their kids. Awesome experiences for everyone involved. |
| Steel-Will |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 20:28:39
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
"won this division"? Which tournament do you have to win to win the division?
Papa says Bandits, Sandtown and Team Georgia "have consistently been considered to be the top 3 teams in this division for a while now." By whom?
There is a thread of subjectivity to determining who's tops in a division; however, in my two years and 1 day following the GA travel ball seen, I have seen the Red Sox win every kind of tournament there was: USSSA, TC, AABC; and every kind of event, NIT's, SNIT's, State, WS. What whould a "TOP" team look like if this weren't one?
Moreover, I'd like to make plug for Sandtown Park baseball in general. What other park or area can boast of the accomplishments across age groups as them.
2009 Sandtown Angels 6u USSSA WS Champs, AABC State & district Champs
2010 Sandtown Angels 7u USSSA KP WS champs, AABC State & district champs
2008 Yarddog - Red 6u USSSA WS Champs, AABC State & district champs
2009 Yarddog - Red 7u USSSA WS Runner up CP, AABC State champs, #1 USSSA points, #6 USSSA pwr
2009 Sandtown Angels 9u AABC WS Champs, USSSA #4 pwr, beat both EC Braves & Stealth Bomberz
2009 Sandtown Red Sox 10u, AABC WS Champs, USSSA #3 Pwr, USSSA GA State champs,
Is there any one park or area that can boast such domination at so many ages? |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 19:30:58
This is a very good post, one thing I will not agree with is saying you need to get rid of the ECB coaches with kids on a team. Mike Kirksey's ECB Braves have been extremely dominant over the last couple of years. Why??? Because he TRIES to WIN the games and he plays no favorites with his own son. When his season commitment is over he finds better players to replace the weaker ones I for one don't see that team going downhill anytime soon. Now I will say that most of the ECB teams have some weak talent and maybe some of those kids are coaches sons, but I still believe at the end of the day there are more ECB teams because ECB wants more money. Having two teams such as the Braves/Astros at each age group in my personal opinion would do far more for that particular brand than putting 10 teams in each age group in tourneys across the state. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 18:20:43
Papa has been on both end of this stick and will say this. There are advantages and disadvantages to each style of team or program as some call it. But at the end of the day it's all just baseball. You learn to throw it, catch it, and hit it. I love baseball and have nothing but respect for any way that it is played as long as it played the way it was designed to be played. No one will ever be able to convince me that this is not the greatest game of all time. gas bag is right as usual in that each kid develops different from his friend and none of us will know till signing day which one is doing it the right way. |
| BatChipper |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 17:56:12
Granted North Georgia or Chattanooga does not have a ballpark like ECB, it would be great if a ballpark in this area would start a program like ECB. I believe if a ballpark put forth the effort, the kids (and parents) would come running trying to get away from Dizzy Dean. Like PAPA said there is alot of talent in this area at the local parks. quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
Very nice response in the know and also very informative. I only mentioned Team Georgia based on their one year success with mostly local kids that did not see the need to travel the distance to EC or 643.
Boynton as you call us is really just a small park that gained a great deal of respect coming up through the Dizzy Dean program but our area consists of much more than just Boynton. This area is filled with great baseball players that learn the good things about baseball at a very early age. I don't believe that I am out of line in mentioning that you might well see a "PROGRAM" beginning to develop soon as this very topic has been bantered about by the Boynton baseball Gods a lot lately.
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| baldy87 |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 15:48:12
Isn't the biggest draw about EC and 643 that they are "plugged in" to the network of college recruiters and pro scouts? That's what the big draw is at those organizations, right? That's why there are so many of the opinion that it really doesn't matter whether you play at EC or not until 13 or 14, when the Astros start plucking all the major talent so that they can be on the same team - get into the correct tournaments to be seen - and showcase their talent for recruiters/scouts? Personally, I can't tell which kids at 9 or 10 or 11 are going to develop enough, physically, to be noticed when they get to be 16 or 17 years old. For younger ones, I'd focus on finding a team that's convenient, doesn't dent your wallet too badly, has good coaches, and doesn't take themselves too seriously.
Someone else posted about the Boynton Buzz 8U team from this past year. My son's team played them twice this past year and got clobbered both times. They are a great bunch of kids and very well-coached. They are also HUGE for 8 years old and were playing coach pitch, so they POUNDED the ball. If they maintain the kind of size that they have in comparison with kids their age all the way through high school, most of them are going to be 6-5 and weigh about 270. I want to know what's in the dairy products in Boynton. :) |
| gasbag |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 15:42:40
I've seen many teams change, morph, evolve, "devolve", disintegrate, merge etc etc etc as they age in the baseball arena. I'd say, enjoy a season for what it is....a season. Kids mature differently, kids lose interest in baseball, kids grades may drop as they graduate further up the grade level do to multiple challenges and so on and so forth. I've watched too many times where a younger team full of "hosses" banged long ball after long ball but the team never evolve to dealing with the larger playing fields. The kids change and the game changes as the field size increases as well. I'm not saying it can't be done but keeping the same personnel and winning as 9 year olds is way different than winning at 15U with the exact same kids etc. That is where I see value in an organization vs. just a team. One last comment, the other added value may be that the single team outgrows the "dad coaches" expertise and will require a different and perhaps ( not always ) more sophisticated type of insight and experience.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just not real likely to occur throughout their youth baseball career. |
| homerunking |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 12:57:42
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove
quote:
Originally posted by homerunking
Buzz Baseball only lost 1 game in 2010.
Buzz Baseball is a very good team but they lost more than 1 game this year and transitioning from Coach Pitch to Kid Pitch is never a sure thing. We had a nice season this year in 8 y/o summer All Stars but I am not sure we have more than 3 out of our 12 that can pitch at 9 y/o. So 2011 will be an experience for those 9 y/o pitching for the first time.
Well maybe they lost 3 but there is a team that can say they beat them on a Regular basis..Bandits are from the same park as the Buzz and I am sure they will be fine with pitching..This park breeds ball players.. |
| bkball |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 11:36:43
My 2 cents says, the Bandits are doing what East Cobb Astros do or will do at 15 and up. Get the best players around and put them on a team and work with them.
643 takes decent players and hammers the fundamentals of baseball and drills until they are proficient at it. What East Cobb lacks at the lower levels is getting the best players on one team. Until East Cobb gets rid of all coaches or assistants with kids on the team they will not dominate the younger age groups. I don't know how many assistants for the 12U astros have kids on the team, but if there are any then they wont be one of the best teams around. They will be good but about like the teams before at 9, 10 and 11.
You want to compete with the Bandits you need to mesh Titans and Astros but only the very best players off both teams.
I think 643 is in it for the love of teaching the game of baseball, East Cobb more for the money at the younger ages.
You want to compete with the bandits at 12 you better find a sponsor that can pay for all the fees so each player plays for free, hold a free 3 day tryout and invite everyone. Have a young coaching staff that just got out of baseball college or pro, pick your players based on speed and arm strength, Find 8 of the best PO's and 2 of the best catchers you can. The rest can be taught.
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| Shut Out |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 11:36:04
bottom line the success of these programs has led to more kids playing travel ball in the area which leads to more programs and more individual teams. With that said when it comes down to 643/ECB this is only the 4th year of 643 and prior to that the owner was part of ECB. so from i can tell is they basically pull kids from the same area which leads to a lot of good teams but not one of them being great. |
| SSBuckeye |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 11:32:48
Two years ago at 7u, my son's Hopewell All Star team played that Boynton Buzz team in the DD state tournament. Very, very good team. Well coached. One of the most fundamentally sound teams we saw that year. Would not surprise me to see that team excel in the coming years if they stay together. |
| bulldogbaseball100 |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 11:26:34
Respectfully, ECB/643 are programs and the Bandits are an awesome team. Apples and Oranges here folks. |
| 3sondad |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 09:34:50
From what I have seen over the years, each age group has dominate teams outside of the ECBs and 643s and they come from different areas of GA. (There have been a few exceptions where an ECB team was that dominate, but I can only think of one team off the top of my head.) This is consistent until the age of 13. That is when the "true" ECB gear kicks in and the Astros usually dominate their age and even successfully compete playing up. What I have seen is the "power" teams of the 9U to 12U years can compete and beat most other teams, but the Astros' draw of dominate players is too much for them to handle on a consistent basis. Could 12U be the last year of our beloved Bandits dominance? What do the players traveling long distances do at 13U? Does the lure of consistently winning on a national level overcome the loyalty and the draw of playing with buddy's? 643 can put together competitive teams, but it seems to me that 643 is still more competitive when there is one particular coach "materially involved". Can they carry 643 to the next level? Can 643 pull key 13U Astros caliber players next year and stop the continuance of the 13U ECB Astro dominance? Not by being the dominate team themselves, but making it easier for the prior dominate teams by not having to compete against a full strength ECB Astros team??? |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 01:01:10
One big thing that I see as different is the reason behind the teams, while ECB and 643 all have very smart coaches at the end of the day these coaches are coaching their kids. But....the program is about the money, we have all seen less than great kids playing for all of the for profit teams. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed more and more EC teams every year, there reason for this isn't because all of these teams are loaded with stud players. While I understand the reason for more teams I am not sure that it helps the brand of the programs. There is no alternate reason for the Bandits' coaches to try and put a dominant team on the field. It is only about their boys and learning the game, having fun, and being successful. Either way I think both sides of the coin have a lot to offer. We play for a for-profit team, however if we were a .500 team or weren't getting good instruction we probably wouldn't see the need to pay for coaching. |
| 6bomber |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 22:27:51
those who keep saying that you can't get a better program than EC.
might just watch out. obviously EC has the history on it's side, but
some are on the way. the bandits may have found lightning in a bottle, but if they can keep it up, why go anywhere else.
that being said, i've watched as what was a respected program, fall.
our bombers, in multiple age groups, are expecting major changes.there may not be a 12u this year. those who can not just build it, but maintain it, deserve respect. |
| Gold Glove |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 17:48:30
quote:
Originally posted by homerunking
Buzz Baseball only lost 1 game in 2010.
Buzz Baseball is a very good team but they lost more than 1 game this year and transitioning from Coach Pitch to Kid Pitch is never a sure thing. We had a nice season this year in 8 y/o summer All Stars but I am not sure we have more than 3 out of our 12 that can pitch at 9 y/o. So 2011 will be an experience for those 9 y/o pitching for the first time. |
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